So we are leaving..............
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@gjacobse said in So we are leaving..............:
I've not really followed the issue to know which side has more benefit - Member or non-Member of the EU. So I don't know if this is a good or bad thing. I suppose time will tell...
It isn't as clear cut as good or bad. It might be good for Germany, bad for the Netherlands, bad for England and good for Scotland, for example. But "good for Scotland" might mean that it's so bad that it pushes them over the edge into leaving the UK. Like Trump might be "good for the US" because he might be so bad that he causes the government to collapse.
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@coliver said in So we are leaving..............:
@gjacobse said in So we are leaving..............:
I've not really followed the issue to know which side has more benefit - Member or non-Member of the EU. So I don't know if this is a good or bad thing. I suppose time will tell...
Depends, it doesn't make sense to leave from an economic standpoint. It doesn't really make sense to leave from a social standpoint. One of the biggest arguments was that the EU was forcing the UK to open its borders to refugees and immigrants, leaving the EU allowed the UK to better protect itself from those forces.
"Protect itself" from helping those in need is the basic premise we hear in the EU.
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@Jimmy9008 said in So we are leaving..............:
You can find more online rather than me typing it all out, but one thing that really made me angry as an example is this (from a while ago, but still):
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29754168
^ £1.7 Billion Bill in 2014 from the EU. Most other countries got payment to them, including Germany who have a better economy. Cameron said he wouldn't pay, but, oh look - he paid:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3237073/Cameron-Osborne-quietly-pay-1-7BILLION-bill-Brussels-dismisses-totally-unacceptable.htmlQuite how Greece, who were totally up **** creek got a £70m bill to pay, I don't know. Sure EU, it makes sense to hit a country that is totally screwed already with a bill. That makes LOADS of sense. Italy too that are in trouble were billed £268m. Its like we were fined for doing well and had to help the rest! Do better yourself rather than us. This time we cant help you as we are gone soon.
Just do your own research about the different issues.
Imagine if the US said this, though. Oh, Alabama had a bad year so California shouldn't have to pay taxes. That's just not how a single economy works. This is the fundamental issue with the UK being in the EU... the UK isn't about teamwork, it's all about "what can I get out of it."
Normal unions don't work that way. It's "work together" not "get what you can out of it." The entire concept makes no sense if you approach it that way. Which is fundamentally why I think that the EU is better off without the UK. The UK isn't aligned with the EU ideologically. In the long run, I see this as an EU victory. It will hurt for a while, but I think the EU will be better off even though it will be smaller.
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@scottalanmiller said in So we are leaving..............:
@coliver said in So we are leaving..............:
@gjacobse said in So we are leaving..............:
I've not really followed the issue to know which side has more benefit - Member or non-Member of the EU. So I don't know if this is a good or bad thing. I suppose time will tell...
Depends, it doesn't make sense to leave from an economic standpoint. It doesn't really make sense to leave from a social standpoint. One of the biggest arguments was that the EU was forcing the UK to open its borders to refugees and immigrants, leaving the EU allowed the UK to better protect itself from those forces.
"Protect itself" from helping those in need is the basic premise we hear in the EU.
No argument there... I agree with you but was trying to present the argument in an unbiased way.
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@Jimmy9008 said in So we are leaving..............:
The market is having an initial shock due to UK actually leaving. In the long run we will do better than fine.
I agree that it is initial shock. But I don't agree that the UK is going to come back. I truly believe that the UK itself is done, completely. I see little chance of the nation surviving this. And I think that that is far more likely than I thought that leaving the EU would happen and people thought that I was crazy when I said that I was pretty confident that they would leave the EU.
The queen will go down as the monarch who presided over the end of the United Kingdom. The queen who let it all go without saying a word.
Not that that is bad. I see Scotland as the likely big winner here, and maybe NI.
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@Son-of-Jor-El said in So we are leaving..............:
Interesting. I was also reading France may look for a vote to leave if the elections next year go a certain way. The Dutch too.
Like I said, trying not to form the opinion just yet but it seems like the EU is crumbing and it's the big boys wanting to leave.
Every EU country says that and it is true in every election. It's no different than in the US. Texas is regularly getting ready to go, but never quite does. France seems very unlikely, but Holland possibly. Very similar to Quebec in Canada. They never quite leave, but the vote is always very, very close.
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@Breffni-Potter said in So we are leaving..............:
Both sides of this took ques from Trumps playbook on politics, remain and leave. Both were terrible.
Only one of them was towing the Trump line, though. In the end, one was aligned with Trump's interest and one was against.
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Both sides distort the facts
Both sides focus on personality
Both sides intimidate and scare
Trivial Facts are presented as the "why"Discussion and reason are out the window
If you are not with us, It is because you are:Old
Young
Racist
Ignorant
Educated
Un-Educated
Wealthy
Poor
Well Travelled
Non-Traveller
Male
Female
Black
WhiteWith the campaign to leave/stay like this, is it any wonder people voted the way they did?
I voted remain but now that we're out, how are we going to handle things from now? Are we going to continue the circus of labelling people based on their age/gender/race/political views or are we going to grow up and make the best of what we have.
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@NattNatt said in So we are leaving..............:
@Jimmy9008 said in So we are leaving..............:
The market is having an initial shock due to UK actually leaving. In the long run we will do better than fine.
No way in hell will the Middle East want to see the UK economy (and property) crash, as they would lose hundreds of billions. No way will German car manufacturers want to lose the 20%-30% sales from the UK, the French car manufacturers too. Supermarkets such as ALDI and LIDL are heavily invested in the UK and would want to keep that income coming in. Others too.
Large companies will force the EU to keep trade with the UK, as without trading with the 5th largest economy the EU will not have the funds to survive and bale out Greece, Italy so on so forth. Without the UK 'footing the bill', they probably wont be able to anyway.
*6th Largest. France overtook us this morning...
And if Scotland leaves, the UK economy shrinks so dramatically that it will likely lose its place in the G8!
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@scottalanmiller said in So we are leaving..............:
@Breffni-Potter said in So we are leaving..............:
Both sides of this took ques from Trumps playbook on politics, remain and leave. Both were terrible.
Only one of them was towing the Trump line, though. In the end, one was aligned with Trump's interest and one was against.
I disagree.
The message was different, the tactics were a mirror image of each other. It was a disgusting debate to watch.
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On that note.
Irish passports are great.
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@IRJ said in So we are leaving..............:
The EU will do whatever it takes to punish the UK. They can't allow a successful Brexit or other nations will follow.
I agree. And it appears to already be in motion although they will hold back for a while to give options for things like the Queen to step in or another referendum before it is all said and done. One of the quirky things about the British bizarre direct democracy system is that another referendum could overturn this one at any time. It makes for a total political mess.
So now the EU will want to make the UK fail economically while appearing to support it while leaving a lingering threat of greater damage when the leave is complete. There is a long time, 2 - 10 years for the process to complete and the UK can stop it at basically any moment if the Queen or referendum change the movement.
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Does the queen really have the say so?
Or is this more of a follow the leader, to sway popular opinion kind of scenario you're describing?
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@coliver said in So we are leaving..............:
@scottalanmiller said in So we are leaving..............:
@coliver said in So we are leaving..............:
@gjacobse said in So we are leaving..............:
I've not really followed the issue to know which side has more benefit - Member or non-Member of the EU. So I don't know if this is a good or bad thing. I suppose time will tell...
Depends, it doesn't make sense to leave from an economic standpoint. It doesn't really make sense to leave from a social standpoint. One of the biggest arguments was that the EU was forcing the UK to open its borders to refugees and immigrants, leaving the EU allowed the UK to better protect itself from those forces.
"Protect itself" from helping those in need is the basic premise we hear in the EU.
No argument there... I agree with you but was trying to present the argument in an unbiased way.
I think protecting itself implies a danger rather than a dislike for helping those of non-European heritage. It's not about danger, it's about dislike. Which is why so many people are so upset about how the vote went from the outside. That the US is anti-Semitic is well known and the level of open racism in the US is what it is. The UK was supposed to be better but this seems to be stooping to the American level and that is very upsetting. This will make it so much easier for Americans to carry on with it to yet another level in their next elections too. It's a snowball effect, just like in the 1920s. Not that it will happen, but this is how it starts.
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@DustinB3403 said in So we are leaving..............:
Does the queen really have the say so?
Sure does. Sadly, she has proven herself to be unwilling to do anything in her country and is just along for the ride. This is exactly what the monarch is for, to protect the country from itself - especially in cases where the voting public just can't know enough about the factors involved. And the queen understands the potential horrors of a divided Europe and what it can bring. That she hasn't acted will likely be the shame that she carries with her for centuries.
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Queen Elizabeth is going to likely sit beside George III in the annals of "monarchs who let the empire go." G3 was insane, that was his excuse, and his megalomania made him not see the futility of a distant war even when his officers told him that he could not win and he wages two wars against the US, losing both. He was in a tough spot and I feel that the US was taking advantage of the situation in many ways, and I understand why he felt that he had to defend his position, but in the end he failed big time. Elizabeth will be seen for her inaction, instead. A lifetime of doing nothing, nothing at all. And with an entire lifetime of quietly waiting for the moment that she was needed failing to even speak up. She has made the monarchy pointless and betrayed her subjects.
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So if the monarchy is in charge, why does the UK have a Parliament?
Why doesn't the royal family just make all of the orders?
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@DustinB3403 said in So we are leaving..............:
So if the monarchy is in charge, why does the UK have a Parliament?
Why doesn't the royal family just make all of the orders?
Being able to veto stupidity is not the same as being in charge.
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The monarch is a branch of the British government, not the government itself. Parliament has broad powers and "runs" the government. But the monarch has a special role and is still supposed to be more than a figure head. It's more like America's supreme court in that the position is for life and is entrusted with special powers to protect against other parts of government failing. but like the Supreme Court, the queen can't step in and take over, but that doesn't mean that she doesn't have power and responsibility.
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@scottalanmiller said in So we are leaving..............:
@DustinB3403 said in So we are leaving..............:
So if the monarchy is in charge, why does the UK have a Parliament?
Why doesn't the royal family just make all of the orders?
Being able to veto stupidity is not the same as being in charge.
I'd beg to differ on that part. If you and I were having a conversation about whatever.
And we get into a heated argument about whichever one is best, would you immediately stop arguing about it just because @Minion-Queen said to stop arguing about it?
It's a stupid argument, that has you upset. Would you just stop being upset when someone tells you too?
