Don't Stay in School
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@Jason said in Don't Stay in School:
@scottalanmiller said in Don't Stay in School:
Sadly, immediately after these videos he went silent on all channels. No idea what happened to him.
Cue the American government conspiracy theories
Or British, more likely
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Awesome.
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I think my favorite line of his was - why can't we use Google to find the quadratic equation.
As to his life skills - seeing a syllabus would be pretty awesome, I'm wondering what he would drop and what he would add.
I'll definitely agree that anything past probably 8th grade, and perhaps much less than that, are really needed by the common man.
On problem with having a high percentage highly educated society is, who is going to do all the non cool/non desirable jobs? No one goes to high school, hell any school and thinks - they I want to be a garbage person when I grow up, or I want to work at walmart stocking shelves, or at Jiffy lube changing oil, yet these types of jobs are where more people work than (in the USA) than any thing else. If anyone has a stat on that, I'd love to see the numbers.
Learning for learning sake is great, as long as you enjoy learning - but just because it's good, should that be a reason to force it upon people?
He also makes a great point of the fact that he doesn't know how he would solve the problems. If there are 1000 kids in a school, and assuming they all had to take algebra - should you have 10 different levels of algebra? 20? In my school they had three. I suppose if the lowest level taught the minimum required knowledge based on state requirements I'm not sure where the cut offs come for the higher level ones. Also, if the higher levels ones are cramming more education into the same time period as the lower level classes, then you have to maintain these 10 or 20 or more levels based on the assumption that some kids at each level will want to learn more - and if they want to, why wouldn't you provide it? and so on, and so on...
This post has grown to long... caio.
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@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
I'll definitely agree that anything past probably 8th grade, and perhaps much less than that, are really needed by the common man.
Probably a mix. Few 8th graders are anywhere nearly prepared to talk politics. Things like geography and history are necessary for even basic functional citizenship (unless we remove democracy, then we don't have to educate every individual to all of these things - democracy comes at an incredible price.) Math needs to at least go to algebra. Science we go way, way too far. Computing we rarely even bother to introduce in any meaningful way. English lit... way too far.
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@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
Learning for learning sake is great, as long as you enjoy learning - but just because it's good, should that be a reason to force it upon people?
The one thing that the author leaves out, probably because he's 22 and never really thought about it, is that the school system is actually mostly a babysitting system and cover for the welfare programs. People feel no or little shame in a sixteen year old being unemployed because they "have to be in school", even though even a fourteen year old is a totally viable worker (I know, I've hired many.)
By taking the 14 - 18 year old pool and, for all intents and purposes, blocking them from meaningful employment we remove a huge percentage of the potential workforce from being able to work. This means that people who are 18+ have less competition for the available jobs. This improves the ability of adults who struggle to compete for even the most entry level jobs to get hired to do them. It makes many jobs effectively welfare positions because we've forcibly kept more qualified people out of the jobs because they have to be in school.
It also creates tons of otherwise unnecessary jobs - teachers. Because we teach way more kids than are necessary, most teaching jobs in the high school range are actually not driven by the economy but are a way to get paychecks to people who we don't otherwise have job roles for. It's not actually the teachers here that are the ones on welfare (almost never anyway) but it's trickle down economics... make unnecessary jobs for teachers and teachers don't have to compete for a slightly lower job displacing the people who do that who, in turn, would displace someone else. So while it is the teaching positions that are superfluous, it remains the minimum wage workers down the trickle down system that are actually the ones getting a welfare replacement job that exists only to keep people paid even though there isn't actually any work for them to do.
In the end, it's a means of keeping the populace reasonably happy while making unemployment numbers look drastically more favourable than they really are. Sure, unemployment is only 7%, but 5% of the workers are people doing jobs that only exist because we didn't want to admit that the real unemployment numbers would be 12% based on the actual work that there is to be done.
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You certainly can't put much stock in a lot of what kids say, as it's mostly driven by immature emotion and selfishness, but pretty much any school-age child has asked "Why do I need to learn this? How is this going to be applicable to my life in any way as an adult?" If it's obvious enough for nearly all children to have picked up on, then there is an agenda driving it. Call it a conspiracy, or whatever. The organized education system, at least in the West, is a sham.
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@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
Learning for learning sake is great, as long as you enjoy learning - but just because it's good, should that be a reason to force it upon people?
You absolutely cannot force someone to learn if they do not want to learn. Sure if you drill enough facts into their head they'll be able to regurgitate them on demand... but is that really learning, or is it rote memorization?
If you allow them to explore the world on their own and let them find something they want to learn, they will excel in that far better than anything else that someone is trying to force them to learn.
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Interesting. Though what's wrong with public baby sitting service? Why not really do it right and go that way fully invest in that program - hell, I've always wondered why high school was more of a vocational school situation.
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@scottalanmiller said in Don't Stay in School:
@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
I'll definitely agree that anything past probably 8th grade, and perhaps much less than that, are really needed by the common man.
Probably a mix. Few 8th graders are anywhere nearly prepared to talk politics. Things like geography and history are necessary for even basic functional citizenship (unless we remove democracy, then we don't have to educate every individual to all of these things - democracy comes at an incredible price.) Math needs to at least go to algebra. Science we go way, way too far. Computing we rarely even bother to introduce in any meaningful way. English lit... way too far.
I definitely understand where you are coming from - and I'll fully admit to my general lack of knowledge in history - but would dropping the general requirements for history really change much in the world we live in today?
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@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
@scottalanmiller said in Don't Stay in School:
@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
I'll definitely agree that anything past probably 8th grade, and perhaps much less than that, are really needed by the common man.
Probably a mix. Few 8th graders are anywhere nearly prepared to talk politics. Things like geography and history are necessary for even basic functional citizenship (unless we remove democracy, then we don't have to educate every individual to all of these things - democracy comes at an incredible price.) Math needs to at least go to algebra. Science we go way, way too far. Computing we rarely even bother to introduce in any meaningful way. English lit... way too far.
I definitely understand where you are coming from - and I'll fully admit to my general lack of knowledge in history - but would dropping the general requirements for history really change much in the world we live in today?
History gives us good examples of things that have been tried and worked, or things that have tried and failed... In technology, government, business...
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There is a reason that homeschooling is growing fast in the US. If you homeschool yes you have "required crap to teach" but if you are smart you hand your kid the book and say read it fast.
Required for NYS:
Elementary school required hours 6,480/ school year.
Math, reading, spelling, writing, the English language, geography, United States history (come on people the country isn't that old there isn't that much to teach), science, health education, music, visual arts, physical education, bilingual education and/or English as a second language where the need is indicated, NYS History (while one of the older settled areas and yes we have a lot of history here this can be taught in one year).These have to be taught every year grades K-6: By the time my son was in 4th grade we had read the same crap over and over for NYS history especially.
I think honestly that you really only need through 6th grade. Anything beyond that would be because a kid wanted to learn more or needed to because they wanted to be a DR.
We spent most of the high school years reading biography's and learning real life skills. Math for one whole year was accounting, bookkeeping and basic life money skills.
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@dafyre said in Don't Stay in School:
@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
@scottalanmiller said in Don't Stay in School:
@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
I'll definitely agree that anything past probably 8th grade, and perhaps much less than that, are really needed by the common man.
Probably a mix. Few 8th graders are anywhere nearly prepared to talk politics. Things like geography and history are necessary for even basic functional citizenship (unless we remove democracy, then we don't have to educate every individual to all of these things - democracy comes at an incredible price.) Math needs to at least go to algebra. Science we go way, way too far. Computing we rarely even bother to introduce in any meaningful way. English lit... way too far.
I definitely understand where you are coming from - and I'll fully admit to my general lack of knowledge in history - but would dropping the general requirements for history really change much in the world we live in today?
History gives us good examples of things that have been tried and worked, or things that have tried and failed... In technology, government, business...
of course - but do these lessons get learned by the masses today? At bare minimum, finding a way to improve delivery and retention of this knowledge is required.
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@Minion-Queen said in Don't Stay in School:
There is a reason that homeschooling is growing fast in the US. If you homeschool yes you have "required crap to teach" but if you are smart you hand your kid the book and say read it fast.
Unless there is a standardized test that they are taking that proves they learned that knowledge, what's the point? Other than learning for learning sake of course.
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@Minion-Queen said in Don't Stay in School:
Required for NYS:
Elementary school required hours 6,480/ school year.What a trivial requirement.
Math, reading, spelling, writing, the English language, geography, United States history (come on people the country isn't that old there isn't that much to teach), science, health education, music, visual arts, physical education, bilingual education and/or English as a second language where the need is indicated, NYS History (while one of the older settled areas and yes we have a lot of history here this can be taught in one year).
The same was the case here in Nebraska - the repetition helps with maintaining memory though, so I'm not totally against it.
I think honestly that you really only need through 6th grade. Anything beyond that would be because a kid wanted to learn more or needed to because they wanted to be a DR.
Well Scott mentioned that he feels that students should be taught through at least algebra - I suppose basic algebra would be fine, simple variable equations are definitely good to be able to work out. We covered these in 6th grade if not before.
We spent most of the high school years reading biography's and learning real life skills. Math for one whole year was accounting, bookkeeping and basic life money skills.
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@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
@dafyre said in Don't Stay in School:
@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
@scottalanmiller said in Don't Stay in School:
@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
I'll definitely agree that anything past probably 8th grade, and perhaps much less than that, are really needed by the common man.
Probably a mix. Few 8th graders are anywhere nearly prepared to talk politics. Things like geography and history are necessary for even basic functional citizenship (unless we remove democracy, then we don't have to educate every individual to all of these things - democracy comes at an incredible price.) Math needs to at least go to algebra. Science we go way, way too far. Computing we rarely even bother to introduce in any meaningful way. English lit... way too far.
I definitely understand where you are coming from - and I'll fully admit to my general lack of knowledge in history - but would dropping the general requirements for history really change much in the world we live in today?
History gives us good examples of things that have been tried and worked, or things that have tried and failed... In technology, government, business...
of course - but do these lessons get learned by the masses today? At bare minimum, finding a way to improve delivery and retention of this knowledge is required.
If this were before the time of Google and online encyclopedias, I would agree with you. I think now, though, that teaching someone HOW to find that wealth of knowledge rather than making them retain it is better in some regards. Not that they should never be taught the history. But in the teaching, show them how to search for and learn from history.
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In NYS they have to take some standardized testing but it's still dumb. You can literally (if your kid has a good memory) teach them everything for grades say 3-6 in one year. And then stop teaching. Obviously as a kid matures their outlook on Literature and the ability to write a better book report grows but really all the skills they need can be taught in one year. But what does writing a book report have to do with learning anything?
When you look at what they teach in most schools actual grammar isn't taught for more than a few weeks. Which should be taught more. Practical Math skills (pointing out why they need to learn things not just expect them to spew out memorized stuff), need to be taught.
I have conversations with my son's friends who went to regular school. They have NO life skills at all, hope they figure them out in college (oh wait they are going to drink and party).
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@dafyre said in Don't Stay in School:
@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
@dafyre said in Don't Stay in School:
@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
@scottalanmiller said in Don't Stay in School:
@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
I'll definitely agree that anything past probably 8th grade, and perhaps much less than that, are really needed by the common man.
Probably a mix. Few 8th graders are anywhere nearly prepared to talk politics. Things like geography and history are necessary for even basic functional citizenship (unless we remove democracy, then we don't have to educate every individual to all of these things - democracy comes at an incredible price.) Math needs to at least go to algebra. Science we go way, way too far. Computing we rarely even bother to introduce in any meaningful way. English lit... way too far.
I definitely understand where you are coming from - and I'll fully admit to my general lack of knowledge in history - but would dropping the general requirements for history really change much in the world we live in today?
History gives us good examples of things that have been tried and worked, or things that have tried and failed... In technology, government, business...
of course - but do these lessons get learned by the masses today? At bare minimum, finding a way to improve delivery and retention of this knowledge is required.
If this were before the time of Google and online encyclopedias, I would agree with you. I think now, though, that teaching someone HOW to find that wealth of knowledge rather than making them retain it is better in some regards. Not that they should never be taught the history. But in the teaching, show them how to search for and learn from history.
My HS chemistry teacher said - and I'll never forget this - that he wouldn't bother making us memorize the periodic table - why bother? You can always look it up. The parts that you use frequently would become memorized from use, and the rest are just a lookup away. I loved that man for that simple logic!
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@dafyre said in Don't Stay in School:
@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
@dafyre said in Don't Stay in School:
@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
@scottalanmiller said in Don't Stay in School:
@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
I'll definitely agree that anything past probably 8th grade, and perhaps much less than that, are really needed by the common man.
Probably a mix. Few 8th graders are anywhere nearly prepared to talk politics. Things like geography and history are necessary for even basic functional citizenship (unless we remove democracy, then we don't have to educate every individual to all of these things - democracy comes at an incredible price.) Math needs to at least go to algebra. Science we go way, way too far. Computing we rarely even bother to introduce in any meaningful way. English lit... way too far.
I definitely understand where you are coming from - and I'll fully admit to my general lack of knowledge in history - but would dropping the general requirements for history really change much in the world we live in today?
History gives us good examples of things that have been tried and worked, or things that have tried and failed... In technology, government, business...
of course - but do these lessons get learned by the masses today? At bare minimum, finding a way to improve delivery and retention of this knowledge is required.
If this were before the time of Google and online encyclopedias, I would agree with you. I think now, though, that teaching someone HOW to find that wealth of knowledge rather than making them retain it is better in some regards. Not that they should never be taught the history. But in the teaching, show them how to search for and learn from history.
According to my son this was one of the best things I taught him how to do: research on google.
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@Minion-Queen said in Don't Stay in School:
@dafyre said in Don't Stay in School:
@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
@dafyre said in Don't Stay in School:
@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
@scottalanmiller said in Don't Stay in School:
@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
I'll definitely agree that anything past probably 8th grade, and perhaps much less than that, are really needed by the common man.
Probably a mix. Few 8th graders are anywhere nearly prepared to talk politics. Things like geography and history are necessary for even basic functional citizenship (unless we remove democracy, then we don't have to educate every individual to all of these things - democracy comes at an incredible price.) Math needs to at least go to algebra. Science we go way, way too far. Computing we rarely even bother to introduce in any meaningful way. English lit... way too far.
I definitely understand where you are coming from - and I'll fully admit to my general lack of knowledge in history - but would dropping the general requirements for history really change much in the world we live in today?
History gives us good examples of things that have been tried and worked, or things that have tried and failed... In technology, government, business...
of course - but do these lessons get learned by the masses today? At bare minimum, finding a way to improve delivery and retention of this knowledge is required.
If this were before the time of Google and online encyclopedias, I would agree with you. I think now, though, that teaching someone HOW to find that wealth of knowledge rather than making them retain it is better in some regards. Not that they should never be taught the history. But in the teaching, show them how to search for and learn from history.
According to my son this was one of the best things I taught him how to do: research on google.
One of my Grad professors told the class that 90% of a systems admin job was researching stuff via Google. If you couldn't research then you weren't cut out to work in IT.
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@Minion-Queen said in Don't Stay in School:
@dafyre said in Don't Stay in School:
@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
@dafyre said in Don't Stay in School:
@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
@scottalanmiller said in Don't Stay in School:
@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
I'll definitely agree that anything past probably 8th grade, and perhaps much less than that, are really needed by the common man.
Probably a mix. Few 8th graders are anywhere nearly prepared to talk politics. Things like geography and history are necessary for even basic functional citizenship (unless we remove democracy, then we don't have to educate every individual to all of these things - democracy comes at an incredible price.) Math needs to at least go to algebra. Science we go way, way too far. Computing we rarely even bother to introduce in any meaningful way. English lit... way too far.
I definitely understand where you are coming from - and I'll fully admit to my general lack of knowledge in history - but would dropping the general requirements for history really change much in the world we live in today?
History gives us good examples of things that have been tried and worked, or things that have tried and failed... In technology, government, business...
of course - but do these lessons get learned by the masses today? At bare minimum, finding a way to improve delivery and retention of this knowledge is required.
If this were before the time of Google and online encyclopedias, I would agree with you. I think now, though, that teaching someone HOW to find that wealth of knowledge rather than making them retain it is better in some regards. Not that they should never be taught the history. But in the teaching, show them how to search for and learn from history.
According to my son this was one of the best things I taught him how to do: research on google.
This was probably the only successful thing my 12th grade English Lit teacher really did. He enforced critical research and tried to introduce value beyond what was beyond what the state required. It was eye opening to see how many of my peers simply didn't understand how to verify sources.
Although this was the same teacher who associated literally everything in classical literature with sex and more precisely phallic imagery.
