Can you run a Windows desktop OS as a server to run AVImark Veterinary Software?
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Background: AVImark (Owned by Covetrus) is a software company that provides PIMS for vet clinics. Their software requires a Windows Server and Windows server licensing because it goes beyond just working as file sharing.
I got a message on FB Messenger (Unsolicited):
John: "Hi there! I run a small MSP in mid-Michigan that handles a few vet offices. I was wondering if I could pick your brain for a bit about some things? Heck, I'm willing to pay you for your time even.
The main thing right now is that two vets that we've taken over at are running old servers (one 2008R2 and one 2012R2). The 2008R2 one is a fairly small practice. One vet. 6 PCs. They use their server only for Avimark. And they are pretty "cost conscious" about things. Because of that, I'm thinking of just moving to a new box running Windows 10 (or 11) to act as the new Avimark server. Just curious your thoughts on running on Windows desktop instead of a full Windows Server install for such a small office running only Avimark?
Thanks!"
ME: "Hi John, I am happy to help.
It's illegal to use a desktop os for a server.
You can use a desktop pc, but you must use a server os"
JOHN: Hmmm... We may need to agree to disagree on this (as many experts do), but for the sake of argument....
First, even if it was a Terms of Service violation, that would not make it illegal. TOSs are considered civil matters. It is not "illegal" to violate one. So, no, it isn't illegal.
Second, I don't believe that it violates the Windows 10 TOS. And, again, this is very commonly discussed among experts. Windows 10/11 have a 20 device limit for connections. Clearly, MS had multiple PCs accessing it in mind. They even specifically address that Windows Desktop cannot be used as a WEB server because of the 20 connection limit and that each person connecting would be considered another connection. So, since they've made it clear that you can connect up to 20 devices to Desktop -- and said that you can't use IIS as a web server on it -- then that would pretty clearly imply that you CAN use it for server purposes under 20 users. It literally has file sharing built in.
Finally, the official Hardware Requirements for Avimark specifically mention using a Windows 10 PC (running Desktop Windows, not Server) as being acceptable for a smaller office. So are you suggesting that Avimark's own Hardware Requirements recommend an illegal act?
Again, I don't mean that harshly. But this sort of thing is commonly discussion among IT professionals -- and the general consensus is that for situations with under 20 concurrent connections from different devices, the Windows license actually DOES allow this.
Note that software like Quickbooks also runs exactly like this. It is normally installed to a Workstation and shared from there. Very normal in small businesses."
This comes up so often I thought I would do a video on it. It's not a SAM quality video but it was just so bizarre to me.
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@CCWTech seems super clear to me, and always has been:
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@Obsolesce I know right?
People want to believe what gives them the best outcome regardless of the logic. It's literally one of the easiest contracts to understand, yet people WANT to interpret it in a way that benefits them because it saves them money.
The minute you go beyond the very basic services offered in device connections, you MUST use a server OS.
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@CCWTech said in Can you run a desktop OS as a server to run AVImark Veterinaty Software?:
The minute you go beyond the very basic services offered in device connections, you MUST use a server OS.
Not only that, but specifies personal use only. Obviously that is commercial use in a dental office using Avimark.
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@Obsolesce Veterinary, but yes, same concept.
It does say for internal purposes as well, so I would buy the argument that I can be use commercially. But the buck stops at the specifically enumerated services that are acceptable. -
@CCWTech said in Can you run a desktop OS as a server to run AVImark Veterinaty Software?:
First, even if it was a Terms of Service violation, that would not make it illegal. TOSs are considered civil matters. It is not "illegal" to violate one. So, no, it isn't illegal.
Pirating software is theft. Theft is illegal. In an office like that, typically licensing would be above $10K so it isn't just illegal, it would constitute grand theft. Piracy is often taken as a federal matter, as well.
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@CCWTech said in Can you run a desktop OS as a server to run AVImark Veterinaty Software?:
Second, I don't believe that it violates the Windows 10 TOS. And, again, this is very commonly discussed among experts.
LOL, he seems to have a very loose definition of expert.
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@CCWTech said in Can you run a desktop OS as a server to run AVImark Veterinaty Software?:
then that would pretty clearly imply that you CAN use it for server purposes under 20 users. It literally has file sharing built in.
Yes, Microsoft TOS is clear that using it as a FILE SERVER is allowed. AviMark is a database, not a file server. So clear violation as it doesn't use the singular allowed method under the TOS.
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@CCWTech said in Can you run a desktop OS as a server to run AVImark Veterinaty Software?:
Finally, the official Hardware Requirements for Avimark specifically mention using a Windows 10 PC (running Desktop Windows, not Server) as being acceptable for a smaller office. So are you suggesting that Avimark's own Hardware Requirements recommend an illegal act?
This is actually something we talk about in IT all the time... how vendors and software companies have no knowledge of, experience with, or responsibility to oversee your licensing and how it is totally the job of any adult to understand when you are talking to a professional or when you are talking to a random person.
Asking a software vendor what your contract with Microsoft says? Why would they know? That's like asking Ford the speed limit on a highway. The cops know the speed limit, Ford knows how to make the car go that fast. Ford isn't responsible for knowing or enforcing some town's speed limit.
Avimark answered honestly... IF you had a license that allowed you to use Windows 11 that way, it will work. They are responsible for the software aspect of that question, their answer has nothing to do with the IT side of things. And outside of the US, there are many countries (Bolivia, for example) where the TOS don't apply and it absolutely makes sense. So it's not a blanket "illegal" question of intentional software piracy.
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Why is it piracy?
Windows Server 2022 and CALs are not a separate product or code base from Windows 11. Windows 11 is a limited use case of Windows 2022 under which you commit to not using the Server 2022 features. The instant you don't do that, you are using a stolen copy of Windows Server and you haven't just started using the server without a license (in production), but also without CALs. So the amount of piracy goes from what seems like a small "misuse of a product under a TOS" to intentional "federal piracy".
One would hope that someone in the veterinary field, having been required to get college educated, would not need a middle school education in following the rules. This isn't hard stuff, at all. Any receptionist could figure this out if they wanted to, that a doctor can't really makes me worried for the poor animals that they don't understand.
Basic ethics, basic English. Nothing technical here. It's a super simple contract that everyone, everywhere is aware of. Lots of people willing to pirate software, but that doesn't mean that they don't understand it.
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@Obsolesce said in Can you run a desktop OS as a server to run AVImark Veterinaty Software?:
@CCWTech seems super clear to me, and always has been:
The most important bit is "only the following features" of which, AviMark, is not one of them. Personal or internal doesn't matter at that point, as it isn't a feature allowed.
The number of devices allowed to use AviMark remotely from it is exactly: zero.
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@CCWTech said in Can you run a desktop OS as a server to run AVImark Veterinaty Software?:
And, again, this is very commonly discussed among experts. Windows 10/11 have a 20 device limit for connections. Clearly, MS had multiple PCs accessing it in mind.
This is like saying that a bank has 10 teller stations so clearly unlimited people are allowed to steal from the vault.
Allowing one type of access in a limited fashion in no way implies something unrelated is also allowed. What kind of logic do they teach at university these days? An eight year old should have no issue with this. It's SO basic.
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If the product says it can run on Windows 10 or 11 and falls under the 20 connection limit then go for it but with one caveat: Make sure the hardware has ECC memory to avoid a memory flipped bit error that can wreak havoc and at least a RAID 1 array between two SATA SSDs.
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@PhlipElder said in Can you run a Windows desktop OS as a server to run AVImark Veterinary Software?:
If the product says it can run on Windows 10 or 11 and falls under the 20 connection limit then go for it but with one caveat: Make sure the hardware has ECC memory to avoid a memory flipped bit error that can wreak havoc and at least a RAID 1 array between two SATA SSDs.
It doesn't matter what the product says. What is important is Microsoft's TOS. Can you do it? Sure. Is it legal? No.
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@PhlipElder said in Can you run a Windows desktop OS as a server to run AVImark Veterinary Software?:
If the product says it can run on Windows 10 or 11 and falls under the 20 connection limit then go for it but with one caveat: Make sure the hardware has ECC memory to avoid a memory flipped bit error that can wreak havoc and at least a RAID 1 array between two SATA SSDs.
No, the 20 connection limit ONLY applies to the built-in Windows file and print services. File sharing and printing (leaving out IIS and the others as they don't apply).
That is exactly NOT AVImark Veterinary Software.
What you said to do is undeniable theft.
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@Obsolesce said in Can you run a Windows desktop OS as a server to run AVImark Veterinary Software?:
@PhlipElder said in Can you run a Windows desktop OS as a server to run AVImark Veterinary Software?:
If the product says it can run on Windows 10 or 11 and falls under the 20 connection limit then go for it but with one caveat: Make sure the hardware has ECC memory to avoid a memory flipped bit error that can wreak havoc and at least a RAID 1 array between two SATA SSDs.
No, the 20 connection limit ONLY applies to the built-in Windows file and print services. File sharing and printing (leaving out IIS and the others as they don't apply).
That is exactly NOT AVImark Veterinary Software.
What you said to do is undeniable theft.
Remember, ignorance doesn't make you immune to laws etc.
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@scottalanmiller said in Can you run a Windows desktop OS as a server to run AVImark Veterinary Software?:
Why is it piracy?
Windows Server 2022 and CALs are not a separate product or code base from Windows 11. Windows 11 is a limited use case of Windows 2022 under which you commit to not using the Server 2022 features.
While I agree this is piracy, I do not agree with you reasoning.
W11 and WinServer2022 are different products because MS said so!!!
They package them with different features and license rights, different brand names....
So they are different products in many imporant aspects: marketing, legal....Volkswagen and Audi cars also have very much in common under the hood, but they are not same products.
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@Mario-Jakovina said in Can you run a Windows desktop OS as a server to run AVImark Veterinary Software?:
Volkswagen and Audi cars also have very much in common under the hood, but they are not same products.
If the difference between the two products is in the license and only in the license and it is the license that unlocks the features... they are the same product. VW and Audi by law must be different products, made in different places. They can share a lot, but are different vehicles. Windows 11 and 2022 are literally the same product and the difference is the license.
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@PhlipElder said in Can you run a Windows desktop OS as a server to run AVImark Veterinary Software?:
If the product says it can run on Windows 10 or 11 and falls under the 20 connection limit then go for it
So if a third party says you can steal from a bank, go for it? Because Avimark has zero, literally zero, say in what you can legally do in your contract with Microsoft.
With that logic, why ask Avimark at all, why not ask your aunt or some kid on the street? Why pay for any license for anything, ever? Just ask someone who isn't involved and ask them if it is okay to steal from someone else and if you don't like the answer, ask random people until you get the answer you want.
Why bother asking anyone? Just treat yourself as the third party and ask yourself. Voila.
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@Obsolesce said in Can you run a Windows desktop OS as a server to run AVImark Veterinary Software?:
@PhlipElder said in Can you run a Windows desktop OS as a server to run AVImark Veterinary Software?:
If the product says it can run on Windows 10 or 11 and falls under the 20 connection limit then go for it but with one caveat: Make sure the hardware has ECC memory to avoid a memory flipped bit error that can wreak havoc and at least a RAID 1 array between two SATA SSDs.
No, the 20 connection limit ONLY applies to the built-in Windows file and print services. File sharing and printing (leaving out IIS and the others as they don't apply).
That is exactly NOT AVImark Veterinary Software.
What you said to do is undeniable theft.
More importantly, a third party has no authority to override your agreement with Microsoft.
