Project 1 : PFSense Routing
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@scottalanmiller said in Project 1 : PFSense Routing:
@WrCombs said in Project 1 : PFSense Routing:
@jmoore said in Project 1 : PFSense Routing:
@WrCombs As for learning routing basics, Scott is right here and this is stuff you rarely do. I have never done this at a business. I only did a little when studying for my network+ in an online lab. I have never had to do anything similar since. Its learning to troubleshoot the network to tell if your having a routing issue, switch issue, or user. 95% its the user lol. So yes good to learn but i would get the basics down real well first, as basic issues will be by far what you troubleshoot the most.
how do you guys suggest I learn the basics ?
Videos aren't helping, reading isn't helping.. I'm kind of out of ideas.
Well, for me, it was all books. I like videos a lot, but in our day, there was nothing but books and hands on to learn.
Like I said ; Videos and Books aren't really helping. I get more confused and end up re watching the same videos over and over and still am confused.
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But one thing that I know that I did, that you are not doing, is building up block by block. And this is natural, when I learned networking we didn't have routers! It was like, impossible to get your hands on one. Nor switches. It was cables and hubs. That's it. We didn't have IP addresses or alternatives for most things. We only went up to layer 2!
So I learned by cabling two machines together and figuring things out. Then added a hub when I could afford one. Then made three machines talk to each other.
I learned networking one piece at a time. Then when I got a router, I had to build it, not buy it. And there was no concept of default settings. Everything was done by hand, every time.
As much of a pain as that is, it make learning a lot easier because I wasn't abstracting all of the important stuff away or starting at a high level where things magically worked without me doing anything. There was no DNS, no DHCP, no WINS. I had to manually address everything, I had to manually configure (or even build) every single step. And there was no Internet to connect to, it was all internal networking.
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Virtualization keeps cost down, but it also makes things a lot harder to grasp. Start with two computers. Wire them together. Make them talk. Do networking where there is nothing but the computers.
This is still tough today because you are FORCED to use TCP/IP for this because lesser protocols like NetBUIE are gone. But it is still good. Learn how to deal with having no DHCP, no DNS, no router, no switch.
Then get a switch. A simple $15 Netgear or TP-Link with 5-8 ports. Figure out how to make three computers talk. Hypothesize what a fourth would be like. Learn it physically one piece at a time.
Get another switch, learn how that works when you connect it. What is the behaviour?
Don't add any router, let alone multiple routers, until you have the layer 2 stuff learned.
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@WrCombs said in Project 1 : PFSense Routing:
get more confused and end up re watching the same videos over and over and still am confused.
This is tough to work with. Without knowing why you are getting more confused or what you are confused about. I mean we can tell that "what a switch is" is confusing. But what we can't tell is... why. Is it because the video is wrong? Or worded poorly?
What video are you using, for example. Is it something that we can review?
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I also find that describing processes and addressing helps a lot. Imagine yourself as the packet flowing through the network and what info you have, what info you need, and how would you get it?
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@scottalanmiller said in Project 1 : PFSense Routing:
@WrCombs said in Project 1 : PFSense Routing:
get more confused and end up re watching the same videos over and over and still am confused.
This is tough to work with. Without knowing why you are getting more confused or what you are confused about. I mean we can tell that "what a switch is" is confusing. But what we can't tell is... why. Is it because the video is wrong? Or worded poorly?
What video are you using, for example. Is it something that we can review?
I'm using the Professor Messer Videos Series.
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@WrCombs said in Project 1 : PFSense Routing:
@scottalanmiller said in Project 1 : PFSense Routing:
@WrCombs said in Project 1 : PFSense Routing:
get more confused and end up re watching the same videos over and over and still am confused.
This is tough to work with. Without knowing why you are getting more confused or what you are confused about. I mean we can tell that "what a switch is" is confusing. But what we can't tell is... why. Is it because the video is wrong? Or worded poorly?
What video are you using, for example. Is it something that we can review?
I'm using the Professor Messer Videos Series.
network+ ?
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@scottalanmiller said in Project 1 : PFSense Routing:
@WrCombs said in Project 1 : PFSense Routing:
@scottalanmiller said in Project 1 : PFSense Routing:
@WrCombs said in Project 1 : PFSense Routing:
get more confused and end up re watching the same videos over and over and still am confused.
This is tough to work with. Without knowing why you are getting more confused or what you are confused about. I mean we can tell that "what a switch is" is confusing. But what we can't tell is... why. Is it because the video is wrong? Or worded poorly?
What video are you using, for example. Is it something that we can review?
I'm using the Professor Messer Videos Series.
network+ ?
correct.
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@WrCombs said in Project 1 : PFSense Routing:
@scottalanmiller said in Project 1 : PFSense Routing:
@WrCombs said in Project 1 : PFSense Routing:
@scottalanmiller said in Project 1 : PFSense Routing:
@WrCombs said in Project 1 : PFSense Routing:
get more confused and end up re watching the same videos over and over and still am confused.
This is tough to work with. Without knowing why you are getting more confused or what you are confused about. I mean we can tell that "what a switch is" is confusing. But what we can't tell is... why. Is it because the video is wrong? Or worded poorly?
What video are you using, for example. Is it something that we can review?
I'm using the Professor Messer Videos Series.
network+ ?
correct.
Watching the first video now.
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I don't know if this would be useful to you, but I did most of my networking on Windows NT 4, Windows 98 and Linux. NT4 was way, way more "raw" than Windows 10 is, and Linux was the same as Linux today, essentially. I think attempting to learn networking using Windows of any sort made since the mid-1990s will sabotage any attempt to learn, as would using a Mac. They are full of abstractions and automations that make learning all but impossible because no one is certain what is happening under the hood.
This is where taking some old "throw away" devices, or getting some dirt cheap older Raspberry Pis (even v 1 or 2) can help a lot, easily. Use Linux, do all command line, keep it as simple and obvious as possible. Then you can really see what is happening rather than getting a modified view of what someone wanted to show you.
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@WrCombs said in Project 1 : PFSense Routing:
@jmoore said in Project 1 : PFSense Routing:
@WrCombs As for learning routing basics, Scott is right here and this is stuff you rarely do. I have never done this at a business. I only did a little when studying for my network+ in an online lab. I have never had to do anything similar since. Its learning to troubleshoot the network to tell if your having a routing issue, switch issue, or user. 95% its the user lol. So yes good to learn but i would get the basics down real well first, as basic issues will be by far what you troubleshoot the most.
how do you guys suggest I learn the basics ?
Videos aren't helping, reading isn't helping.. I'm kind of out of ideas.
Its books for me too. Think I also used a website because the books are generally pretty lite. Let me see if I can find it.
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So far, found this one to be good and clear...
https://mangolassi.it/topic/19635/network-switching-overview-comptia-network-n10-007-prof-messer
It's rather a good explanation of what a switch does.
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So let's talk about that video. Just this one, focused on switching. It's very technical, but it does a good job IMHO of explaining the role of a switch and how it works.
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@WrCombs I would learn by using Linux. The reason why is that Windows hides a lot of processes in the background. They get abstracted away. You wont understand them if you don't see them and have to interact with them. If you learn it the Linux way, Windows becomes mostly trivial.
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@jmoore said in Project 1 : PFSense Routing:
@WrCombs I would learn by using Linux. The reason why is that Windows hides a lot of processes in the background. They get abstracted away. You wont understand them if you don't see them and have to interact with them. If you learn it the Linux way, Windows becomes mostly trivial.
only way i would be able to do that at this point would be a linux VM..
which flavor should I choose? -
@WrCombs Here i found them.
https://www.tutorialspoint.com/data_communication_computer_network/index.htm
and
https://www.computernetworkingnotes.com/networking-tutorials/Do some hands on stuff like Scott mentioned and read these and you should have a decent grasp of things.
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@WrCombs said in Project 1 : PFSense Routing:
@jmoore said in Project 1 : PFSense Routing:
@WrCombs I would learn by using Linux. The reason why is that Windows hides a lot of processes in the background. They get abstracted away. You wont understand them if you don't see them and have to interact with them. If you learn it the Linux way, Windows becomes mostly trivial.
only way i would be able to do that at this point would be a linux VM..
which flavor should I choose?It doesn't really matter and a vm is just fine. Whatever distro you are comfortable with. Fedora, Ubuntu, Mint, Opensuse.
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@jmoore said in Project 1 : PFSense Routing:
@WrCombs said in Project 1 : PFSense Routing:
@jmoore said in Project 1 : PFSense Routing:
@WrCombs I would learn by using Linux. The reason why is that Windows hides a lot of processes in the background. They get abstracted away. You wont understand them if you don't see them and have to interact with them. If you learn it the Linux way, Windows becomes mostly trivial.
only way i would be able to do that at this point would be a linux VM..
which flavor should I choose?It doesn't really matter and a vm is just fine. Whatever distro you are comfortable with. Fedora, Ubuntu, Mint, Opensuse.
VMs will do the trick, but I have a feeling that the abstraction will make it so much harder. So many more moving parts, and so much harder when you can't put your hands on something. Physically having computers goes a long way. We were buying old computers for $20 back in the mid-1990s. They have to be all but free today.
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@scottalanmiller said in Project 1 : PFSense Routing:
but I have a feeling that the abstraction will make it so much harder.
Make a tutorial on how to setup a private network in virtual box and then how to make that the only network on the VM's. That equates to the same thing.
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@JaredBusch said in Project 1 : PFSense Routing:
@scottalanmiller said in Project 1 : PFSense Routing:
but I have a feeling that the abstraction will make it so much harder.
Make a tutorial on how to setup a private network in virtual box and then how to make that the only network on the VM's. That equates to the same thing.
From a purely "how human brains think", I don't think that it does. There is something really educational about touching wires and seeing where electrons have the opportunity to go that really helps you to understand flows.
