LANLess explained.
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@romo said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
@travisdh1 said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
Don't forget tools to manage the workstations. In a LANLess design, you can treat the workstations like they're on a public network and crank the firewall up, and that means you don't rely on the LAN to manage/access workstations.
I'd say you're most of the way there with just Office 365 or GSuite only if you've gone all the way in (which for GSuite requires Chromebooks unless you're all BYOD)
We actually have GSuite at my part-time position right now, I just need to get people to actually USE IT. Yep.
Good luck with that. We have GSuite at my job too, but there's no incentive to fully use it. There's a disconnect between their regular AD login and their GSuite account, and so it doesn't make sense for users to start using this service that seems separated from everything else, and there doesn't seem to be any way to script Google Drive. It makes sense with Chromebooks, since everything gets linked together, and it would make sense with BYOD since your Google account is "how you get in" to the company resources. So unless company culture and structure changes (i.e. get rid of SMB access to the fileserver) there's no good way to ease them into it.
At with Office 365, from what I hear, you can do SSO with Onedrive and then do redirected folders into the Onedrive folder. Currently I'm working on coming up with a solution using Syncthing.
You can try setting up G Suite Password Sync (GSPS) to get your AD passwords insync with their GSuite account
Yes, but there is still a disconnect even if the password is the same. I sign and access the files I need vs I sign in and access the files I need and also need to sign into Google file sync/stream. An optimum user abstraction would make it seem to the user that there is only one 'place' where their files are and they don't have to think about it.
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@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
@romo said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
@travisdh1 said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
Don't forget tools to manage the workstations. In a LANLess design, you can treat the workstations like they're on a public network and crank the firewall up, and that means you don't rely on the LAN to manage/access workstations.
I'd say you're most of the way there with just Office 365 or GSuite only if you've gone all the way in (which for GSuite requires Chromebooks unless you're all BYOD)
We actually have GSuite at my part-time position right now, I just need to get people to actually USE IT. Yep.
Good luck with that. We have GSuite at my job too, but there's no incentive to fully use it. There's a disconnect between their regular AD login and their GSuite account, and so it doesn't make sense for users to start using this service that seems separated from everything else, and there doesn't seem to be any way to script Google Drive. It makes sense with Chromebooks, since everything gets linked together, and it would make sense with BYOD since your Google account is "how you get in" to the company resources. So unless company culture and structure changes (i.e. get rid of SMB access to the fileserver) there's no good way to ease them into it.
At with Office 365, from what I hear, you can do SSO with Onedrive and then do redirected folders into the Onedrive folder. Currently I'm working on coming up with a solution using Syncthing.
You can try setting up G Suite Password Sync (GSPS) to get your AD passwords insync with their GSuite account
Yes, but there is still a disconnect even if the password is the same. I sign and access the files I need vs I sign in and access the files I need and also need to sign into Google file sync/stream. An optimum user abstraction would make it seem to the user that there is only one 'place' where their files are and they don't have to think about it.
That's not the way of the world anymore.
Heck MS tried to bring that back (at least in mobile with their HUBS idea - but we all know where that is now). Each vendor wants it's own branding front and center. -
@dashrender said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
@romo said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
@travisdh1 said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
Don't forget tools to manage the workstations. In a LANLess design, you can treat the workstations like they're on a public network and crank the firewall up, and that means you don't rely on the LAN to manage/access workstations.
I'd say you're most of the way there with just Office 365 or GSuite only if you've gone all the way in (which for GSuite requires Chromebooks unless you're all BYOD)
We actually have GSuite at my part-time position right now, I just need to get people to actually USE IT. Yep.
Good luck with that. We have GSuite at my job too, but there's no incentive to fully use it. There's a disconnect between their regular AD login and their GSuite account, and so it doesn't make sense for users to start using this service that seems separated from everything else, and there doesn't seem to be any way to script Google Drive. It makes sense with Chromebooks, since everything gets linked together, and it would make sense with BYOD since your Google account is "how you get in" to the company resources. So unless company culture and structure changes (i.e. get rid of SMB access to the fileserver) there's no good way to ease them into it.
At with Office 365, from what I hear, you can do SSO with Onedrive and then do redirected folders into the Onedrive folder. Currently I'm working on coming up with a solution using Syncthing.
You can try setting up G Suite Password Sync (GSPS) to get your AD passwords insync with their GSuite account
Yes, but there is still a disconnect even if the password is the same. I sign and access the files I need vs I sign in and access the files I need and also need to sign into Google file sync/stream. An optimum user abstraction would make it seem to the user that there is only one 'place' where their files are and they don't have to think about it.
That's not the way of the world anymore.
Heck MS tried to bring that back (at least in mobile with their HUBS idea - but we all know where that is now). Each vendor wants it's own branding front and center.It is achievable with open source tools, but it's kind of a stop-gap thing while we are still exposing users to the OS filesystem
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@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
@dashrender said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
@romo said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
@travisdh1 said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
Don't forget tools to manage the workstations. In a LANLess design, you can treat the workstations like they're on a public network and crank the firewall up, and that means you don't rely on the LAN to manage/access workstations.
I'd say you're most of the way there with just Office 365 or GSuite only if you've gone all the way in (which for GSuite requires Chromebooks unless you're all BYOD)
We actually have GSuite at my part-time position right now, I just need to get people to actually USE IT. Yep.
Good luck with that. We have GSuite at my job too, but there's no incentive to fully use it. There's a disconnect between their regular AD login and their GSuite account, and so it doesn't make sense for users to start using this service that seems separated from everything else, and there doesn't seem to be any way to script Google Drive. It makes sense with Chromebooks, since everything gets linked together, and it would make sense with BYOD since your Google account is "how you get in" to the company resources. So unless company culture and structure changes (i.e. get rid of SMB access to the fileserver) there's no good way to ease them into it.
At with Office 365, from what I hear, you can do SSO with Onedrive and then do redirected folders into the Onedrive folder. Currently I'm working on coming up with a solution using Syncthing.
You can try setting up G Suite Password Sync (GSPS) to get your AD passwords insync with their GSuite account
Yes, but there is still a disconnect even if the password is the same. I sign and access the files I need vs I sign in and access the files I need and also need to sign into Google file sync/stream. An optimum user abstraction would make it seem to the user that there is only one 'place' where their files are and they don't have to think about it.
That's not the way of the world anymore.
Heck MS tried to bring that back (at least in mobile with their HUBS idea - but we all know where that is now). Each vendor wants it's own branding front and center.It is achievable with open source tools, but it's kind of a stop-gap thing while we are still exposing users to the OS filesystem
Give me an example of your achieved via open source tools solution, please.
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@jmoore said in LANLess explained.:
Btw when I tried to look at your original website, Cloudflare said your site was down.
Yeah, the server was actually down for a while. Newbie mistake on my end, automatic updates are setup, but it wasn't autostarting httpd, oops... I need to get much better with saltstack already!
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@romo said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
@travisdh1 said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
Don't forget tools to manage the workstations. In a LANLess design, you can treat the workstations like they're on a public network and crank the firewall up, and that means you don't rely on the LAN to manage/access workstations.
I'd say you're most of the way there with just Office 365 or GSuite only if you've gone all the way in (which for GSuite requires Chromebooks unless you're all BYOD)
We actually have GSuite at my part-time position right now, I just need to get people to actually USE IT. Yep.
Good luck with that. We have GSuite at my job too, but there's no incentive to fully use it. There's a disconnect between their regular AD login and their GSuite account, and so it doesn't make sense for users to start using this service that seems separated from everything else, and there doesn't seem to be any way to script Google Drive. It makes sense with Chromebooks, since everything gets linked together, and it would make sense with BYOD since your Google account is "how you get in" to the company resources. So unless company culture and structure changes (i.e. get rid of SMB access to the fileserver) there's no good way to ease them into it.
At with Office 365, from what I hear, you can do SSO with Onedrive and then do redirected folders into the Onedrive folder. Currently I'm working on coming up with a solution using Syncthing.
You can try setting up G Suite Password Sync (GSPS) to get your AD passwords insync with their GSuite account
The idea would be to move to G Suite entirely, including file storage with Google Drive. No need for AD, and all credentials managed through admin.google.com
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@travisdh1 said in LANLess explained.:
@romo said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
@travisdh1 said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
Don't forget tools to manage the workstations. In a LANLess design, you can treat the workstations like they're on a public network and crank the firewall up, and that means you don't rely on the LAN to manage/access workstations.
I'd say you're most of the way there with just Office 365 or GSuite only if you've gone all the way in (which for GSuite requires Chromebooks unless you're all BYOD)
We actually have GSuite at my part-time position right now, I just need to get people to actually USE IT. Yep.
Good luck with that. We have GSuite at my job too, but there's no incentive to fully use it. There's a disconnect between their regular AD login and their GSuite account, and so it doesn't make sense for users to start using this service that seems separated from everything else, and there doesn't seem to be any way to script Google Drive. It makes sense with Chromebooks, since everything gets linked together, and it would make sense with BYOD since your Google account is "how you get in" to the company resources. So unless company culture and structure changes (i.e. get rid of SMB access to the fileserver) there's no good way to ease them into it.
At with Office 365, from what I hear, you can do SSO with Onedrive and then do redirected folders into the Onedrive folder. Currently I'm working on coming up with a solution using Syncthing.
You can try setting up G Suite Password Sync (GSPS) to get your AD passwords insync with their GSuite account
The idea would be to move to G Suite entirely, including file storage with Google Drive. No need for AD, and all credentials managed through admin.google.com
That just leaves managing the Windows machines, assuming they aren't BOYD.
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@dashrender said in LANLess explained.:
@travisdh1 said in LANLess explained.:
@romo said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
@travisdh1 said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
Don't forget tools to manage the workstations. In a LANLess design, you can treat the workstations like they're on a public network and crank the firewall up, and that means you don't rely on the LAN to manage/access workstations.
I'd say you're most of the way there with just Office 365 or GSuite only if you've gone all the way in (which for GSuite requires Chromebooks unless you're all BYOD)
We actually have GSuite at my part-time position right now, I just need to get people to actually USE IT. Yep.
Good luck with that. We have GSuite at my job too, but there's no incentive to fully use it. There's a disconnect between their regular AD login and their GSuite account, and so it doesn't make sense for users to start using this service that seems separated from everything else, and there doesn't seem to be any way to script Google Drive. It makes sense with Chromebooks, since everything gets linked together, and it would make sense with BYOD since your Google account is "how you get in" to the company resources. So unless company culture and structure changes (i.e. get rid of SMB access to the fileserver) there's no good way to ease them into it.
At with Office 365, from what I hear, you can do SSO with Onedrive and then do redirected folders into the Onedrive folder. Currently I'm working on coming up with a solution using Syncthing.
You can try setting up G Suite Password Sync (GSPS) to get your AD passwords insync with their GSuite account
The idea would be to move to G Suite entirely, including file storage with Google Drive. No need for AD, and all credentials managed through admin.google.com
That just leaves managing the Windows machines, assuming they aren't BOYD.
Who needs to manage them at that point? Besides making sure updates are downloaded and installed normally, and that they have the latest OS. Those are both automatic and free (currently, subject to change.)
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@dashrender said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
@dashrender said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
@romo said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
@travisdh1 said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
Don't forget tools to manage the workstations. In a LANLess design, you can treat the workstations like they're on a public network and crank the firewall up, and that means you don't rely on the LAN to manage/access workstations.
I'd say you're most of the way there with just Office 365 or GSuite only if you've gone all the way in (which for GSuite requires Chromebooks unless you're all BYOD)
We actually have GSuite at my part-time position right now, I just need to get people to actually USE IT. Yep.
Good luck with that. We have GSuite at my job too, but there's no incentive to fully use it. There's a disconnect between their regular AD login and their GSuite account, and so it doesn't make sense for users to start using this service that seems separated from everything else, and there doesn't seem to be any way to script Google Drive. It makes sense with Chromebooks, since everything gets linked together, and it would make sense with BYOD since your Google account is "how you get in" to the company resources. So unless company culture and structure changes (i.e. get rid of SMB access to the fileserver) there's no good way to ease them into it.
At with Office 365, from what I hear, you can do SSO with Onedrive and then do redirected folders into the Onedrive folder. Currently I'm working on coming up with a solution using Syncthing.
You can try setting up G Suite Password Sync (GSPS) to get your AD passwords insync with their GSuite account
Yes, but there is still a disconnect even if the password is the same. I sign and access the files I need vs I sign in and access the files I need and also need to sign into Google file sync/stream. An optimum user abstraction would make it seem to the user that there is only one 'place' where their files are and they don't have to think about it.
That's not the way of the world anymore.
Heck MS tried to bring that back (at least in mobile with their HUBS idea - but we all know where that is now). Each vendor wants it's own branding front and center.It is achievable with open source tools, but it's kind of a stop-gap thing while we are still exposing users to the OS filesystem
Give me an example of your achieved via open source tools solution, please.
I not 100% sure we are talking about the same thing, but here it goes.
I'm almost done creating a Salt collection (I should turn it into a Salt Formula) that uses Syncthing to Sync folders like Desktop, Documents, etc to a Syncthing 'master' server (essentially replacing Folder Redirection). Therefore whenever one of my user logs on to a workstation that I manage with Salt, their files will get synced without needing to be on the same LAN, just internet connection required.
It might be possible to do something similar using the Google Drive API
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@travisdh1 said in LANLess explained.:
@dashrender said in LANLess explained.:
@travisdh1 said in LANLess explained.:
@romo said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
@travisdh1 said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
Don't forget tools to manage the workstations. In a LANLess design, you can treat the workstations like they're on a public network and crank the firewall up, and that means you don't rely on the LAN to manage/access workstations.
I'd say you're most of the way there with just Office 365 or GSuite only if you've gone all the way in (which for GSuite requires Chromebooks unless you're all BYOD)
We actually have GSuite at my part-time position right now, I just need to get people to actually USE IT. Yep.
Good luck with that. We have GSuite at my job too, but there's no incentive to fully use it. There's a disconnect between their regular AD login and their GSuite account, and so it doesn't make sense for users to start using this service that seems separated from everything else, and there doesn't seem to be any way to script Google Drive. It makes sense with Chromebooks, since everything gets linked together, and it would make sense with BYOD since your Google account is "how you get in" to the company resources. So unless company culture and structure changes (i.e. get rid of SMB access to the fileserver) there's no good way to ease them into it.
At with Office 365, from what I hear, you can do SSO with Onedrive and then do redirected folders into the Onedrive folder. Currently I'm working on coming up with a solution using Syncthing.
You can try setting up G Suite Password Sync (GSPS) to get your AD passwords insync with their GSuite account
The idea would be to move to G Suite entirely, including file storage with Google Drive. No need for AD, and all credentials managed through admin.google.com
That just leaves managing the Windows machines, assuming they aren't BOYD.
Who needs to manage them at that point? Besides making sure updates are downloaded and installed normally, and that they have the latest OS. Those are both automatic and free (currently, subject to change.)
LANless doesn't mean leaving users to their own means on company workstations. With something like Salt, it should be easier to manage them than ever. A lot of the time, users are left to report issues with their workstation that could be fixed with routine maintenance (clearing browser cache, etc.), or that could be detected earlier (i.e. running smartmontools to report if there are bad sectors in the hard drive). Before it might have seemed like a daunting task, but with today's tools that is what a modern desktop admin should be doing. Workstations are just servers that serve one person.
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@travisdh1 said in LANLess explained.:
@dashrender said in LANLess explained.:
@travisdh1 said in LANLess explained.:
@romo said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
@travisdh1 said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
Don't forget tools to manage the workstations. In a LANLess design, you can treat the workstations like they're on a public network and crank the firewall up, and that means you don't rely on the LAN to manage/access workstations.
I'd say you're most of the way there with just Office 365 or GSuite only if you've gone all the way in (which for GSuite requires Chromebooks unless you're all BYOD)
We actually have GSuite at my part-time position right now, I just need to get people to actually USE IT. Yep.
Good luck with that. We have GSuite at my job too, but there's no incentive to fully use it. There's a disconnect between their regular AD login and their GSuite account, and so it doesn't make sense for users to start using this service that seems separated from everything else, and there doesn't seem to be any way to script Google Drive. It makes sense with Chromebooks, since everything gets linked together, and it would make sense with BYOD since your Google account is "how you get in" to the company resources. So unless company culture and structure changes (i.e. get rid of SMB access to the fileserver) there's no good way to ease them into it.
At with Office 365, from what I hear, you can do SSO with Onedrive and then do redirected folders into the Onedrive folder. Currently I'm working on coming up with a solution using Syncthing.
You can try setting up G Suite Password Sync (GSPS) to get your AD passwords insync with their GSuite account
The idea would be to move to G Suite entirely, including file storage with Google Drive. No need for AD, and all credentials managed through admin.google.com
That just leaves managing the Windows machines, assuming they aren't BOYD.
Who needs to manage them at that point? Besides making sure updates are downloaded and installed normally, and that they have the latest OS. Those are both automatic and free (currently, subject to change.)
Because if they are business owned machines, I don't want my users to have local admin rights. So some form of management still needs to take place.
If you have a reason to not have this, I'm all ears.
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@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
@dashrender said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
@dashrender said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
@romo said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
@travisdh1 said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
Don't forget tools to manage the workstations. In a LANLess design, you can treat the workstations like they're on a public network and crank the firewall up, and that means you don't rely on the LAN to manage/access workstations.
I'd say you're most of the way there with just Office 365 or GSuite only if you've gone all the way in (which for GSuite requires Chromebooks unless you're all BYOD)
We actually have GSuite at my part-time position right now, I just need to get people to actually USE IT. Yep.
Good luck with that. We have GSuite at my job too, but there's no incentive to fully use it. There's a disconnect between their regular AD login and their GSuite account, and so it doesn't make sense for users to start using this service that seems separated from everything else, and there doesn't seem to be any way to script Google Drive. It makes sense with Chromebooks, since everything gets linked together, and it would make sense with BYOD since your Google account is "how you get in" to the company resources. So unless company culture and structure changes (i.e. get rid of SMB access to the fileserver) there's no good way to ease them into it.
At with Office 365, from what I hear, you can do SSO with Onedrive and then do redirected folders into the Onedrive folder. Currently I'm working on coming up with a solution using Syncthing.
You can try setting up G Suite Password Sync (GSPS) to get your AD passwords insync with their GSuite account
Yes, but there is still a disconnect even if the password is the same. I sign and access the files I need vs I sign in and access the files I need and also need to sign into Google file sync/stream. An optimum user abstraction would make it seem to the user that there is only one 'place' where their files are and they don't have to think about it.
That's not the way of the world anymore.
Heck MS tried to bring that back (at least in mobile with their HUBS idea - but we all know where that is now). Each vendor wants it's own branding front and center.It is achievable with open source tools, but it's kind of a stop-gap thing while we are still exposing users to the OS filesystem
Give me an example of your achieved via open source tools solution, please.
I not 100% sure we are talking about the same thing, but here it goes.
I'm almost done creating a Salt collection (I should turn it into a Salt Formula) that uses Syncthing to Sync folders like Desktop, Documents, etc to a Syncthing 'master' server (essentially replacing Folder Redirection). Therefore whenever one of my user logs on to a workstation that I manage with Salt, their files will get synced without needing to be on the same LAN, just internet connection required.
It might be possible to do something similar using the Google Drive API
This sounds good, but is it tenable for someone with many gigs on their desktop? If we discount laptop/mobile users for the moment, the idea of working off cloud only stuff, i.e. no local sync, there's no syncing required at all.
Offline access is the sticking point in this.
If you have policies in place that prevent huge amounts of data/files from needing to be synced, then the above mentioned syncing solution might be doable for regular users, but in the wild west of people having huge amounts of things to be synced, especially to a new machine, that's a super slow logon process.
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@travisdh1 said in LANLess explained.:
@dashrender said in LANLess explained.:
@travisdh1 said in LANLess explained.:
@romo said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
@travisdh1 said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
Don't forget tools to manage the workstations. In a LANLess design, you can treat the workstations like they're on a public network and crank the firewall up, and that means you don't rely on the LAN to manage/access workstations.
I'd say you're most of the way there with just Office 365 or GSuite only if you've gone all the way in (which for GSuite requires Chromebooks unless you're all BYOD)
We actually have GSuite at my part-time position right now, I just need to get people to actually USE IT. Yep.
Good luck with that. We have GSuite at my job too, but there's no incentive to fully use it. There's a disconnect between their regular AD login and their GSuite account, and so it doesn't make sense for users to start using this service that seems separated from everything else, and there doesn't seem to be any way to script Google Drive. It makes sense with Chromebooks, since everything gets linked together, and it would make sense with BYOD since your Google account is "how you get in" to the company resources. So unless company culture and structure changes (i.e. get rid of SMB access to the fileserver) there's no good way to ease them into it.
At with Office 365, from what I hear, you can do SSO with Onedrive and then do redirected folders into the Onedrive folder. Currently I'm working on coming up with a solution using Syncthing.
You can try setting up G Suite Password Sync (GSPS) to get your AD passwords insync with their GSuite account
The idea would be to move to G Suite entirely, including file storage with Google Drive. No need for AD, and all credentials managed through admin.google.com
That just leaves managing the Windows machines, assuming they aren't BOYD.
Who needs to manage them at that point? Besides making sure updates are downloaded and installed normally, and that they have the latest OS. Those are both automatic and free (currently, subject to change.)
Needs to? You might not need to, but you can, and better than ever before.
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@dashrender said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
@dashrender said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
@dashrender said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
@romo said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
@travisdh1 said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
Don't forget tools to manage the workstations. In a LANLess design, you can treat the workstations like they're on a public network and crank the firewall up, and that means you don't rely on the LAN to manage/access workstations.
I'd say you're most of the way there with just Office 365 or GSuite only if you've gone all the way in (which for GSuite requires Chromebooks unless you're all BYOD)
We actually have GSuite at my part-time position right now, I just need to get people to actually USE IT. Yep.
Good luck with that. We have GSuite at my job too, but there's no incentive to fully use it. There's a disconnect between their regular AD login and their GSuite account, and so it doesn't make sense for users to start using this service that seems separated from everything else, and there doesn't seem to be any way to script Google Drive. It makes sense with Chromebooks, since everything gets linked together, and it would make sense with BYOD since your Google account is "how you get in" to the company resources. So unless company culture and structure changes (i.e. get rid of SMB access to the fileserver) there's no good way to ease them into it.
At with Office 365, from what I hear, you can do SSO with Onedrive and then do redirected folders into the Onedrive folder. Currently I'm working on coming up with a solution using Syncthing.
You can try setting up G Suite Password Sync (GSPS) to get your AD passwords insync with their GSuite account
Yes, but there is still a disconnect even if the password is the same. I sign and access the files I need vs I sign in and access the files I need and also need to sign into Google file sync/stream. An optimum user abstraction would make it seem to the user that there is only one 'place' where their files are and they don't have to think about it.
That's not the way of the world anymore.
Heck MS tried to bring that back (at least in mobile with their HUBS idea - but we all know where that is now). Each vendor wants it's own branding front and center.It is achievable with open source tools, but it's kind of a stop-gap thing while we are still exposing users to the OS filesystem
Give me an example of your achieved via open source tools solution, please.
I not 100% sure we are talking about the same thing, but here it goes.
I'm almost done creating a Salt collection (I should turn it into a Salt Formula) that uses Syncthing to Sync folders like Desktop, Documents, etc to a Syncthing 'master' server (essentially replacing Folder Redirection). Therefore whenever one of my user logs on to a workstation that I manage with Salt, their files will get synced without needing to be on the same LAN, just internet connection required.
It might be possible to do something similar using the Google Drive API
This sounds good, but is it tenable for someone with many gigs on their desktop? If we discount laptop/mobile users for the moment, the idea of working off cloud only stuff, i.e. no local sync, there's no syncing required at all.
Offline access is the sticking point in this.
If you have policies in place that prevent huge amounts of data/files from needing to be synced, then the above mentioned syncing solution might be doable for regular users, but in the wild west of people having huge amounts of things to be synced, especially to a new machine, that's a super slow logon process.
You're missing the point that the data and apps live on the servers, and not on the local workstation. Syncing to the workstation actively inhibits use.
-
@travisdh1 said in LANLess explained.:
@dashrender said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
@dashrender said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
@dashrender said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
@romo said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
@travisdh1 said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
Don't forget tools to manage the workstations. In a LANLess design, you can treat the workstations like they're on a public network and crank the firewall up, and that means you don't rely on the LAN to manage/access workstations.
I'd say you're most of the way there with just Office 365 or GSuite only if you've gone all the way in (which for GSuite requires Chromebooks unless you're all BYOD)
We actually have GSuite at my part-time position right now, I just need to get people to actually USE IT. Yep.
Good luck with that. We have GSuite at my job too, but there's no incentive to fully use it. There's a disconnect between their regular AD login and their GSuite account, and so it doesn't make sense for users to start using this service that seems separated from everything else, and there doesn't seem to be any way to script Google Drive. It makes sense with Chromebooks, since everything gets linked together, and it would make sense with BYOD since your Google account is "how you get in" to the company resources. So unless company culture and structure changes (i.e. get rid of SMB access to the fileserver) there's no good way to ease them into it.
At with Office 365, from what I hear, you can do SSO with Onedrive and then do redirected folders into the Onedrive folder. Currently I'm working on coming up with a solution using Syncthing.
You can try setting up G Suite Password Sync (GSPS) to get your AD passwords insync with their GSuite account
Yes, but there is still a disconnect even if the password is the same. I sign and access the files I need vs I sign in and access the files I need and also need to sign into Google file sync/stream. An optimum user abstraction would make it seem to the user that there is only one 'place' where their files are and they don't have to think about it.
That's not the way of the world anymore.
Heck MS tried to bring that back (at least in mobile with their HUBS idea - but we all know where that is now). Each vendor wants it's own branding front and center.It is achievable with open source tools, but it's kind of a stop-gap thing while we are still exposing users to the OS filesystem
Give me an example of your achieved via open source tools solution, please.
I not 100% sure we are talking about the same thing, but here it goes.
I'm almost done creating a Salt collection (I should turn it into a Salt Formula) that uses Syncthing to Sync folders like Desktop, Documents, etc to a Syncthing 'master' server (essentially replacing Folder Redirection). Therefore whenever one of my user logs on to a workstation that I manage with Salt, their files will get synced without needing to be on the same LAN, just internet connection required.
It might be possible to do something similar using the Google Drive API
This sounds good, but is it tenable for someone with many gigs on their desktop? If we discount laptop/mobile users for the moment, the idea of working off cloud only stuff, i.e. no local sync, there's no syncing required at all.
Offline access is the sticking point in this.
If you have policies in place that prevent huge amounts of data/files from needing to be synced, then the above mentioned syncing solution might be doable for regular users, but in the wild west of people having huge amounts of things to be synced, especially to a new machine, that's a super slow logon process.
You're missing the point that the data and apps live on the servers, and not on the local workstation. Syncing to the workstation actively inhibits use.
No, I was replying to @flaxking desire to have files synced all over the place, regardless of what machine he's on.
I agree with you, @travisdh1 that having no data local removes these issues. Some things just don't work that way. I.E. CAD, sure you can have VDI CAD solutions, perhaps even RDS CAD solutions. So unless you're offloading those apps to the remote access, you're still going to need local data access for those type of things. But even in the cases where you do offload them, you still haven't abstracted the data storage like you have with O365 and online Word. But then again, neither did @flaxking solution.
-
@dashrender said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
@dashrender said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
@dashrender said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
@romo said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
@travisdh1 said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
Don't forget tools to manage the workstations. In a LANLess design, you can treat the workstations like they're on a public network and crank the firewall up, and that means you don't rely on the LAN to manage/access workstations.
I'd say you're most of the way there with just Office 365 or GSuite only if you've gone all the way in (which for GSuite requires Chromebooks unless you're all BYOD)
We actually have GSuite at my part-time position right now, I just need to get people to actually USE IT. Yep.
Good luck with that. We have GSuite at my job too, but there's no incentive to fully use it. There's a disconnect between their regular AD login and their GSuite account, and so it doesn't make sense for users to start using this service that seems separated from everything else, and there doesn't seem to be any way to script Google Drive. It makes sense with Chromebooks, since everything gets linked together, and it would make sense with BYOD since your Google account is "how you get in" to the company resources. So unless company culture and structure changes (i.e. get rid of SMB access to the fileserver) there's no good way to ease them into it.
At with Office 365, from what I hear, you can do SSO with Onedrive and then do redirected folders into the Onedrive folder. Currently I'm working on coming up with a solution using Syncthing.
You can try setting up G Suite Password Sync (GSPS) to get your AD passwords insync with their GSuite account
Yes, but there is still a disconnect even if the password is the same. I sign and access the files I need vs I sign in and access the files I need and also need to sign into Google file sync/stream. An optimum user abstraction would make it seem to the user that there is only one 'place' where their files are and they don't have to think about it.
That's not the way of the world anymore.
Heck MS tried to bring that back (at least in mobile with their HUBS idea - but we all know where that is now). Each vendor wants it's own branding front and center.It is achievable with open source tools, but it's kind of a stop-gap thing while we are still exposing users to the OS filesystem
Give me an example of your achieved via open source tools solution, please.
I not 100% sure we are talking about the same thing, but here it goes.
I'm almost done creating a Salt collection (I should turn it into a Salt Formula) that uses Syncthing to Sync folders like Desktop, Documents, etc to a Syncthing 'master' server (essentially replacing Folder Redirection). Therefore whenever one of my user logs on to a workstation that I manage with Salt, their files will get synced without needing to be on the same LAN, just internet connection required.
It might be possible to do something similar using the Google Drive API
This sounds good, but is it tenable for someone with many gigs on their desktop? If we discount laptop/mobile users for the moment, the idea of working off cloud only stuff, i.e. no local sync, there's no syncing required at all.
Offline access is the sticking point in this.
If you have policies in place that prevent huge amounts of data/files from needing to be synced, then the above mentioned syncing solution might be doable for regular users, but in the wild west of people having huge amounts of things to be synced, especially to a new machine, that's a super slow logon process.
It syncs in the background, I make it priority for my workstations not to have login wait times. But yes there are limitations to it, and it also can pale in comparison these days to things like file stream. I'm implementing it to replace Folder Redirection (which I hate) and it's mostly just a fancy backup for random user files. My users also don't switch workstations unless they have to. Like I said, it's a stop-gap measure while we still expose users to the OS file system. My goal is to make things as intuitive as possible for my users.
-
@travisdh1 said in LANLess explained.:
@dashrender said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
@dashrender said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
@dashrender said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
@romo said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
@travisdh1 said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
Don't forget tools to manage the workstations. In a LANLess design, you can treat the workstations like they're on a public network and crank the firewall up, and that means you don't rely on the LAN to manage/access workstations.
I'd say you're most of the way there with just Office 365 or GSuite only if you've gone all the way in (which for GSuite requires Chromebooks unless you're all BYOD)
We actually have GSuite at my part-time position right now, I just need to get people to actually USE IT. Yep.
Good luck with that. We have GSuite at my job too, but there's no incentive to fully use it. There's a disconnect between their regular AD login and their GSuite account, and so it doesn't make sense for users to start using this service that seems separated from everything else, and there doesn't seem to be any way to script Google Drive. It makes sense with Chromebooks, since everything gets linked together, and it would make sense with BYOD since your Google account is "how you get in" to the company resources. So unless company culture and structure changes (i.e. get rid of SMB access to the fileserver) there's no good way to ease them into it.
At with Office 365, from what I hear, you can do SSO with Onedrive and then do redirected folders into the Onedrive folder. Currently I'm working on coming up with a solution using Syncthing.
You can try setting up G Suite Password Sync (GSPS) to get your AD passwords insync with their GSuite account
Yes, but there is still a disconnect even if the password is the same. I sign and access the files I need vs I sign in and access the files I need and also need to sign into Google file sync/stream. An optimum user abstraction would make it seem to the user that there is only one 'place' where their files are and they don't have to think about it.
That's not the way of the world anymore.
Heck MS tried to bring that back (at least in mobile with their HUBS idea - but we all know where that is now). Each vendor wants it's own branding front and center.It is achievable with open source tools, but it's kind of a stop-gap thing while we are still exposing users to the OS filesystem
Give me an example of your achieved via open source tools solution, please.
I not 100% sure we are talking about the same thing, but here it goes.
I'm almost done creating a Salt collection (I should turn it into a Salt Formula) that uses Syncthing to Sync folders like Desktop, Documents, etc to a Syncthing 'master' server (essentially replacing Folder Redirection). Therefore whenever one of my user logs on to a workstation that I manage with Salt, their files will get synced without needing to be on the same LAN, just internet connection required.
It might be possible to do something similar using the Google Drive API
This sounds good, but is it tenable for someone with many gigs on their desktop? If we discount laptop/mobile users for the moment, the idea of working off cloud only stuff, i.e. no local sync, there's no syncing required at all.
Offline access is the sticking point in this.
If you have policies in place that prevent huge amounts of data/files from needing to be synced, then the above mentioned syncing solution might be doable for regular users, but in the wild west of people having huge amounts of things to be synced, especially to a new machine, that's a super slow logon process.
You're missing the point that the data and apps live on the servers, and not on the local workstation. Syncing to the workstation actively inhibits use.
LANless design should ideally be done under the a DevOps mindset, which in this situation means that you shouldn't be doing something counter-intuitive to users even if it is 'the best way' for IT to do it.
@Dashrender has a good example with CAD. We are still limited by programs that meet business needs, and business needs come first. We can now easily manage workstations, so that should not be an excuse to invest in expensive infrastructure that we say is 'easy for IT' but less intuitive for users.
-
@dashrender said in LANLess explained.:
@travisdh1 said in LANLess explained.:
@dashrender said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
@dashrender said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
@dashrender said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
@romo said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
@travisdh1 said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
Don't forget tools to manage the workstations. In a LANLess design, you can treat the workstations like they're on a public network and crank the firewall up, and that means you don't rely on the LAN to manage/access workstations.
I'd say you're most of the way there with just Office 365 or GSuite only if you've gone all the way in (which for GSuite requires Chromebooks unless you're all BYOD)
We actually have GSuite at my part-time position right now, I just need to get people to actually USE IT. Yep.
Good luck with that. We have GSuite at my job too, but there's no incentive to fully use it. There's a disconnect between their regular AD login and their GSuite account, and so it doesn't make sense for users to start using this service that seems separated from everything else, and there doesn't seem to be any way to script Google Drive. It makes sense with Chromebooks, since everything gets linked together, and it would make sense with BYOD since your Google account is "how you get in" to the company resources. So unless company culture and structure changes (i.e. get rid of SMB access to the fileserver) there's no good way to ease them into it.
At with Office 365, from what I hear, you can do SSO with Onedrive and then do redirected folders into the Onedrive folder. Currently I'm working on coming up with a solution using Syncthing.
You can try setting up G Suite Password Sync (GSPS) to get your AD passwords insync with their GSuite account
Yes, but there is still a disconnect even if the password is the same. I sign and access the files I need vs I sign in and access the files I need and also need to sign into Google file sync/stream. An optimum user abstraction would make it seem to the user that there is only one 'place' where their files are and they don't have to think about it.
That's not the way of the world anymore.
Heck MS tried to bring that back (at least in mobile with their HUBS idea - but we all know where that is now). Each vendor wants it's own branding front and center.It is achievable with open source tools, but it's kind of a stop-gap thing while we are still exposing users to the OS filesystem
Give me an example of your achieved via open source tools solution, please.
I not 100% sure we are talking about the same thing, but here it goes.
I'm almost done creating a Salt collection (I should turn it into a Salt Formula) that uses Syncthing to Sync folders like Desktop, Documents, etc to a Syncthing 'master' server (essentially replacing Folder Redirection). Therefore whenever one of my user logs on to a workstation that I manage with Salt, their files will get synced without needing to be on the same LAN, just internet connection required.
It might be possible to do something similar using the Google Drive API
This sounds good, but is it tenable for someone with many gigs on their desktop? If we discount laptop/mobile users for the moment, the idea of working off cloud only stuff, i.e. no local sync, there's no syncing required at all.
Offline access is the sticking point in this.
If you have policies in place that prevent huge amounts of data/files from needing to be synced, then the above mentioned syncing solution might be doable for regular users, but in the wild west of people having huge amounts of things to be synced, especially to a new machine, that's a super slow logon process.
You're missing the point that the data and apps live on the servers, and not on the local workstation. Syncing to the workstation actively inhibits use.
No, I was replying to @flaxking desire to have files synced all over the place, regardless of what machine he's on.
I agree with you, @travisdh1 that having no data local removes these issues. Some things just don't work that way. I.E. CAD, sure you can have VDI CAD solutions, perhaps even RDS CAD solutions. So unless you're offloading those apps to the remote access, you're still going to need local data access for those type of things. But even in the cases where you do offload them, you still haven't abstracted the data storage like you have with O365 and online Word. But then again, neither did @flaxking solution.
Don't get me started on old/bad CAD software! I can do 95% of everything the expensive CAD packages do at www.tinkercad.com! Now that's off my chest...
Yes, CAD/CAM/FEA applications do make things more difficult. Just think about what hosting your CAD applications on an on-demand cloud instance would do for the end users. Of course it's always more expensive to do anything with CAD, but that's an issue no matter where it's being run. Think of something like XenApp that publishes a specific application and also spins up/down Amazon EC2 GPU platforms as needed. Very complicated to get setup initially, but you can't tell me it wouldn't be a better experience for the end user.
-
@travisdh1 said in LANLess explained.:
@dashrender said in LANLess explained.:
@travisdh1 said in LANLess explained.:
@dashrender said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
@dashrender said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
@dashrender said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
@romo said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
@travisdh1 said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
Don't forget tools to manage the workstations. In a LANLess design, you can treat the workstations like they're on a public network and crank the firewall up, and that means you don't rely on the LAN to manage/access workstations.
I'd say you're most of the way there with just Office 365 or GSuite only if you've gone all the way in (which for GSuite requires Chromebooks unless you're all BYOD)
We actually have GSuite at my part-time position right now, I just need to get people to actually USE IT. Yep.
Good luck with that. We have GSuite at my job too, but there's no incentive to fully use it. There's a disconnect between their regular AD login and their GSuite account, and so it doesn't make sense for users to start using this service that seems separated from everything else, and there doesn't seem to be any way to script Google Drive. It makes sense with Chromebooks, since everything gets linked together, and it would make sense with BYOD since your Google account is "how you get in" to the company resources. So unless company culture and structure changes (i.e. get rid of SMB access to the fileserver) there's no good way to ease them into it.
At with Office 365, from what I hear, you can do SSO with Onedrive and then do redirected folders into the Onedrive folder. Currently I'm working on coming up with a solution using Syncthing.
You can try setting up G Suite Password Sync (GSPS) to get your AD passwords insync with their GSuite account
Yes, but there is still a disconnect even if the password is the same. I sign and access the files I need vs I sign in and access the files I need and also need to sign into Google file sync/stream. An optimum user abstraction would make it seem to the user that there is only one 'place' where their files are and they don't have to think about it.
That's not the way of the world anymore.
Heck MS tried to bring that back (at least in mobile with their HUBS idea - but we all know where that is now). Each vendor wants it's own branding front and center.It is achievable with open source tools, but it's kind of a stop-gap thing while we are still exposing users to the OS filesystem
Give me an example of your achieved via open source tools solution, please.
I not 100% sure we are talking about the same thing, but here it goes.
I'm almost done creating a Salt collection (I should turn it into a Salt Formula) that uses Syncthing to Sync folders like Desktop, Documents, etc to a Syncthing 'master' server (essentially replacing Folder Redirection). Therefore whenever one of my user logs on to a workstation that I manage with Salt, their files will get synced without needing to be on the same LAN, just internet connection required.
It might be possible to do something similar using the Google Drive API
This sounds good, but is it tenable for someone with many gigs on their desktop? If we discount laptop/mobile users for the moment, the idea of working off cloud only stuff, i.e. no local sync, there's no syncing required at all.
Offline access is the sticking point in this.
If you have policies in place that prevent huge amounts of data/files from needing to be synced, then the above mentioned syncing solution might be doable for regular users, but in the wild west of people having huge amounts of things to be synced, especially to a new machine, that's a super slow logon process.
You're missing the point that the data and apps live on the servers, and not on the local workstation. Syncing to the workstation actively inhibits use.
No, I was replying to @flaxking desire to have files synced all over the place, regardless of what machine he's on.
I agree with you, @travisdh1 that having no data local removes these issues. Some things just don't work that way. I.E. CAD, sure you can have VDI CAD solutions, perhaps even RDS CAD solutions. So unless you're offloading those apps to the remote access, you're still going to need local data access for those type of things. But even in the cases where you do offload them, you still haven't abstracted the data storage like you have with O365 and online Word. But then again, neither did @flaxking solution.
Don't get me started on old/bad CAD software! I can do 95% of everything the expensive CAD packages do at www.tinkercad.com! Now that's off my chest...
Yes, CAD/CAM/FEA applications do make things more difficult. Just think about what hosting your CAD applications on an on-demand cloud instance would do for the end users. Of course it's always more expensive to do anything with CAD, but that's an issue no matter where it's being run. Think of something like XenApp that publishes a specific application and also spins up/down Amazon EC2 GPU platforms as needed. Very complicated to get setup initially, but you can't tell me it wouldn't be a better experience for the end user.
Sure, but the file storage of the data is still exposed. Applications that have dedicated data that's only usable inside that application are easy to move into a LANLess setup, but things like Word Files and CAD drawings, things that you want to share with people are more challenging to keep the underlying storage layer away from the end user.
But now we are drifting away from the topic at hand.
-
@dashrender said in LANLess explained.:
@travisdh1 said in LANLess explained.:
@dashrender said in LANLess explained.:
@travisdh1 said in LANLess explained.:
@dashrender said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
@dashrender said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
@dashrender said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
@romo said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
@travisdh1 said in LANLess explained.:
@flaxking said in LANLess explained.:
Don't forget tools to manage the workstations. In a LANLess design, you can treat the workstations like they're on a public network and crank the firewall up, and that means you don't rely on the LAN to manage/access workstations.
I'd say you're most of the way there with just Office 365 or GSuite only if you've gone all the way in (which for GSuite requires Chromebooks unless you're all BYOD)
We actually have GSuite at my part-time position right now, I just need to get people to actually USE IT. Yep.
Good luck with that. We have GSuite at my job too, but there's no incentive to fully use it. There's a disconnect between their regular AD login and their GSuite account, and so it doesn't make sense for users to start using this service that seems separated from everything else, and there doesn't seem to be any way to script Google Drive. It makes sense with Chromebooks, since everything gets linked together, and it would make sense with BYOD since your Google account is "how you get in" to the company resources. So unless company culture and structure changes (i.e. get rid of SMB access to the fileserver) there's no good way to ease them into it.
At with Office 365, from what I hear, you can do SSO with Onedrive and then do redirected folders into the Onedrive folder. Currently I'm working on coming up with a solution using Syncthing.
You can try setting up G Suite Password Sync (GSPS) to get your AD passwords insync with their GSuite account
Yes, but there is still a disconnect even if the password is the same. I sign and access the files I need vs I sign in and access the files I need and also need to sign into Google file sync/stream. An optimum user abstraction would make it seem to the user that there is only one 'place' where their files are and they don't have to think about it.
That's not the way of the world anymore.
Heck MS tried to bring that back (at least in mobile with their HUBS idea - but we all know where that is now). Each vendor wants it's own branding front and center.It is achievable with open source tools, but it's kind of a stop-gap thing while we are still exposing users to the OS filesystem
Give me an example of your achieved via open source tools solution, please.
I not 100% sure we are talking about the same thing, but here it goes.
I'm almost done creating a Salt collection (I should turn it into a Salt Formula) that uses Syncthing to Sync folders like Desktop, Documents, etc to a Syncthing 'master' server (essentially replacing Folder Redirection). Therefore whenever one of my user logs on to a workstation that I manage with Salt, their files will get synced without needing to be on the same LAN, just internet connection required.
It might be possible to do something similar using the Google Drive API
This sounds good, but is it tenable for someone with many gigs on their desktop? If we discount laptop/mobile users for the moment, the idea of working off cloud only stuff, i.e. no local sync, there's no syncing required at all.
Offline access is the sticking point in this.
If you have policies in place that prevent huge amounts of data/files from needing to be synced, then the above mentioned syncing solution might be doable for regular users, but in the wild west of people having huge amounts of things to be synced, especially to a new machine, that's a super slow logon process.
You're missing the point that the data and apps live on the servers, and not on the local workstation. Syncing to the workstation actively inhibits use.
No, I was replying to @flaxking desire to have files synced all over the place, regardless of what machine he's on.
I agree with you, @travisdh1 that having no data local removes these issues. Some things just don't work that way. I.E. CAD, sure you can have VDI CAD solutions, perhaps even RDS CAD solutions. So unless you're offloading those apps to the remote access, you're still going to need local data access for those type of things. But even in the cases where you do offload them, you still haven't abstracted the data storage like you have with O365 and online Word. But then again, neither did @flaxking solution.
Don't get me started on old/bad CAD software! I can do 95% of everything the expensive CAD packages do at www.tinkercad.com! Now that's off my chest...
Yes, CAD/CAM/FEA applications do make things more difficult. Just think about what hosting your CAD applications on an on-demand cloud instance would do for the end users. Of course it's always more expensive to do anything with CAD, but that's an issue no matter where it's being run. Think of something like XenApp that publishes a specific application and also spins up/down Amazon EC2 GPU platforms as needed. Very complicated to get setup initially, but you can't tell me it wouldn't be a better experience for the end user.
Sure, but the file storage of the data is still exposed. Applications that have dedicated data that's only usable inside that application are easy to move into a LANLess setup, but things like Word Files and CAD drawings, things that you want to share with people are more challenging to keep the underlying storage layer away from the end user.
But now we are drifting away from the topic at hand.
All I heard was
