Access 2003 in a 2021 World???
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@DustinB3403 said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
@Pete-S said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
IMHO the easiest way forward, for the organization, is to have an new modern system developed that will replace the Access 2003.
How can you possibly know though?
Build an ERP custom to match the business, that seems insane. Start at nothing make a piece of software for just this one business.. ..
Certainly there are better approaches (granted they all have benefits and downsides) but starting from ZERO is not where I would begin.
Actually, he's probably right. He should have said that likely it is the best way. But off the shelf ERP is good for almost no one. It sounds good, it never is. The problem is that starting from off the shelf ERP is often starting from a negative. So starting from zero is a godsend.
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@Pete-S said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
The reason I say it's easier is based on experience. Changing ERP is a much larger projects since it involves almost everyone in a company in one way or the other. The manufacturing part of the equation can often be split into loosely coupled systems/software.
Same here. Building an ERP in house is often quite a bit less work than getting an off the shelf ERP to work for you. Less work, lower cost, and you can fix the mistakes that bite you forever.
Almost every off the shelf ERP requires lots and lots of hidden fees - What people often don't see is that you have to hire a developer(s) in both cases. But one costs extra because its awful and niche work that no one who is good is willing to do. And the other you have control to make sure you get what you want.
With an ERP you are stuck updating with the vendor. Often you are stuck running Windows servers, expensive databases for no reason, all kinds of hidden software licensing fees. It can be 10-30% "dependency tax" hidden that you never see.
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@scottalanmiller said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
@Pete-S said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
IMHO the easiest way forward, for the organization, is to have an new modern system developed that will replace the Access 2003.
This... I need to make a video on why buying an ERP is almost never the right answer. Almost every customer that we have that we manage an ERP for is sorry that they didn't spend the same (or less) money building something that they could control and customize. Buying an ERP is generally insanely expensive and crippling to a business and locks you in.
@pchiodo has run creation of bespoke ERP previously for manufacturing.
damn - did you see the price per user per month for the open source one posted above ? $50/u/m... damn!
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@Dashrender said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
@scottalanmiller said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
@Pete-S said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
IMHO the easiest way forward, for the organization, is to have an new modern system developed that will replace the Access 2003.
This... I need to make a video on why buying an ERP is almost never the right answer. Almost every customer that we have that we manage an ERP for is sorry that they didn't spend the same (or less) money building something that they could control and customize. Buying an ERP is generally insanely expensive and crippling to a business and locks you in.
@pchiodo has run creation of bespoke ERP previously for manufacturing.
damn - did you see the price per user per month for the open source one posted above ? $50/u/m... damn!
That's super cheap. The real enterprise stuff is way more.
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@Pete-S said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
@Dashrender said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
@scottalanmiller said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
@Pete-S said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
IMHO the easiest way forward, for the organization, is to have an new modern system developed that will replace the Access 2003.
This... I need to make a video on why buying an ERP is almost never the right answer. Almost every customer that we have that we manage an ERP for is sorry that they didn't spend the same (or less) money building something that they could control and customize. Buying an ERP is generally insanely expensive and crippling to a business and locks you in.
@pchiodo has run creation of bespoke ERP previously for manufacturing.
damn - did you see the price per user per month for the open source one posted above ? $50/u/m... damn!
That's super cheap. The real enterprise stuff is way more.
Yeah, if we applied calculus, by comparison $50 is "approaching free".
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@Dashrender said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
damn - did you see the price per user per month for the open source one posted above ? $50/u/m... damn!
I think you are a bit confused there. The price of the open source ERPNext is... FREE. Literally free. If you want them to host it for you, the hosting cost is $50/user. The software is free in both cases - whether you host it or you pay someone else to host it. It's only hosting and/or support that you might opt to pay for.
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@scottalanmiller said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
@Dashrender said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
damn - did you see the price per user per month for the open source one posted above ? $50/u/m... damn!
I think you are a bit confused there. The price of the open source ERPNext is... FREE. Literally free. If you want them to host it for you, the hosting cost is $50/user. The software is free in both cases - whether you host it or you pay someone else to host it. It's only hosting and/or support that you might opt to pay for.
OK, yeah I get that... good point...
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@scottalanmiller said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
If you want them to host it for you, the hosting cost is $50/user.
Hosting & Support for that price.
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@scottalanmiller said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
This... I need to make a video on why buying an ERP is almost never the right answer. Almost every customer that we have that we manage an ERP for is sorry that they didn't spend the same (or less) money building something that they could control and customize.
I'd like to see that video. I've never heard of a company being sorry in the way you describe. I'd be interested to know why your customers feel like this.
I don't know how you could possibly build something for less - developing an ERP system from scratch is a massive expense. I think it would be ridiculous to even think about it.
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@Carnival-Boy said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
@scottalanmiller said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
This... I need to make a video on why buying an ERP is almost never the right answer. Almost every customer that we have that we manage an ERP for is sorry that they didn't spend the same (or less) money building something that they could control and customize.
I'd like to see that video. I've never heard of a company being sorry in the way you describe. I'd be interested to know why your customers feel like this.
I don't know how you could possibly build something for less - developing an ERP system from scratch is a massive expense. I think it would be ridiculous to even think about it.
I'll add that to the video list
But the fast economic basics are that off the shelf ERPs typically require a staggering amount of customization at rates that normally exceed bespoke development (meaning per hour cost is higher because it's neither fun nor rewarding nor using good tools) and COTS ERPs are normally bloating with tons of unneeded components that most customers will never need. And making a bespoke system means ground up design for the needs of the customer, lower development costs, and only making what is needed.So your thought that an ERP would be staggering to make.. I totally agree. But what gives the bespoke approach a chance is that they tend to only need to remake maybe 20% of what goes into a standard ERP. Every customer needs a different 20%, of course, that's why there isn't one ERP to rule them all.
This is why many ERP vendors only have a handful of customers. Every little industry has a bunch of specialty ERP players that have just a few customers and yet still make money.
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@scottalanmiller said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
@Carnival-Boy said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
@scottalanmiller said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
This... I need to make a video on why buying an ERP is almost never the right answer. Almost every customer that we have that we manage an ERP for is sorry that they didn't spend the same (or less) money building something that they could control and customize.
I'd like to see that video. I've never heard of a company being sorry in the way you describe. I'd be interested to know why your customers feel like this.
I don't know how you could possibly build something for less - developing an ERP system from scratch is a massive expense. I think it would be ridiculous to even think about it.
I'll add that to the video list
But the fast economic basics are that off the shelf ERPs typically require a staggering amount of customization at rates that normally exceed bespoke development (meaning per hour cost is higher because it's neither fun nor rewarding nor using good tools) and COTS ERPs are normally bloating with tons of unneeded components that most customers will never need. And making a bespoke system means ground up design for the needs of the customer, lower development costs, and only making what is needed.So your thought that an ERP would be staggering to make.. I totally agree. But what gives the bespoke approach a chance is that they tend to only need to remake maybe 20% of what goes into a standard ERP. Every customer needs a different 20%, of course, that's why there isn't one ERP to rule them all.
This is why many ERP vendors only have a handful of customers. Every little industry has a bunch of specialty ERP players that have just a few customers and yet still make money.
I'll also add to that a lot of companies still have a "standard" ERP but have other systems that ties into the ERP. For instance a manufacturer may use SAP as their ERP and they might plan their production in SAP but actually executing and keeping track of the production is not done in SAP and they'll use their own custom made solution for that.
PS. I wrote "standard" ERP above because in the case of the typical SAP clients the ERP is usually heavily customized. Every company buys into the solution thinking they only need some "minor" customization but 10 years and lots of $$$$$ later, they realize that's not the case.
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@Pete-S yeah.... the ERP tends to have so many hidden costs...
- Up front cost of the base ERP, typically a sticker-shock level cost
- Then years of customization at very high cost
- Then hidden fees everywhere for required, but not included, components (SQL Server?)
- Often use fees (per user, per core, etc.)
- Then redevelopment cost every time the underlying system changes
- Higher than needed IT costs due to unnecessary complexity.
It just never ends. Every time they turn around, there's another cost.
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@scottalanmiller
But you've got those costs regardless? You need to maintain a bespoke ERP and constantly develop it due to changes in technology, legislation, business needs etc.SaaS provides more certainty and ease of admin. Microsoft Dynamics BC, for example, is $100 per month per user and for that you get a new version of the software every month and no worries and all the benefits of SaaS.
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So I understand you, you're talking about designing and developing a bespoke ERP system in-house? So general ledger, receivables, payables, purchasing, sales, inventory, manufacturing? From scratch?
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@Carnival-Boy said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
So I understand you, you're talking about designing and developing a bespoke ERP system in-house? So general ledger, receivables, payables, purchasing, sales, inventory, manufacturing? From scratch?
The parts of the ERP they actually need yes.
His point is that most companies don’t need all of those pieces in the ERP because some of them are handled in a different thing.
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@Carnival-Boy said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
But you've got those costs regardless? You need to maintain a bespoke ERP and constantly develop it due to changes in technology, legislation, business needs etc.
Sure, but they will be more like 5% the cost of doing the same thing on someone else's platform, technology, decisions, etc.
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@Carnival-Boy said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
SaaS provides more certainty and ease of admin. Microsoft Dynamics BC, for example, is $100 per month per user and for that you get a new version of the software every month and no worries and all the benefits of SaaS.
Assuming you don't need to customize it.
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@JaredBusch said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
@Carnival-Boy said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
So I understand you, you're talking about designing and developing a bespoke ERP system in-house? So general ledger, receivables, payables, purchasing, sales, inventory, manufacturing? From scratch?
The parts of the ERP they actually need yes.
His point is that most companies don’t need all of those pieces in the ERP because some of them are handled in a different thing.
Exactly, most of it goes unused or you have to dramatically change your company to accomodate the product or you need to buy multiple products or essentially write your own product on top of theirs.
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huh, I just did some quick math for my environment.
We pay our EMR vendor something like 5% of our billables for access to platform, our $12 million/year operation then pays roughly $600K/yr... that's a lot of development we could hire and end up with a situation where we can have EXACTLY what we want.
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@Dashrender said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
huh, I just did some quick math for my environment.
We pay our EMR vendor something like 5% of our billables for access to platform, our $12 million/year operation then pays roughly $600K/yr... that's a lot of development we could hire and end up with a situation where we can have EXACTLY what we want.
Wow, yeah. Now that includes the software and hosting, I'm sure. So you don't have a bunch of hidden costs like server licensing and CALs and MS Office and other extra costs sneaking in here and there. But wow, it's a lot.
That kind of budget would easily get you a full time crew of three people, if not more, that create exactly what you want and are there to develop, improve, update, tweak, etc. for forever.
We have customers who do this (not with us) and they don't just consider it a huge financial win, but it's also a big strategic advantage as their ERP lets them do things that their competitors can't.
