Discussion on LTS OSes
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@scottalanmiller said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
LTS, by definition, gets patched. But as we've proven with Ubuntu, not fully patched.
So you picked one bad vendor to try to prove your point. That doesn't invalidate all of the others that do patch. And no you never proves that. You only stated it, which is obviously not proof.
I proved it to the point that it's Canonical's official stance. If it comes to that, you can't prove anything else. I at least got to the point of the vendor making it their support position. It's the most official thing that there could be.
Yeah except that's not proof. That's just you telling us that's what they said. That doesn't prove that a vendor doesn't support their releases.
It does, that's precisely what it does. When called on to support LTS, that was the only way to continue support. What else could it mean?
No because you have not provided us any proof that they said that. I could say that Canonical stated the opposite to me and that means that's proof?
Yes, but it's a one way proof. That they sometimes provide support doesn't mean that the reliably do. That they refuse support because it is LTS proves the point. To be supported, requires it to always be supported, not picking and choosing when they feel like it.
That's a strawman and has nothing to do with the argument. I said that you stating canonical doesn't support an OS isn't proof. And it's not. There is still no proof they said that other than heresay.
No, that requires calling me a liar. Because it was first hand.
By that logic, nothing is proof. Ever.
Right. That's why contracts are written and signed and not someone saying "we will or will not do this". You were definitely under a contract with them for support. This would have had to have been written somewhere.
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@stacksofplates said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
LTS, by definition, gets patched. But as we've proven with Ubuntu, not fully patched.
So you picked one bad vendor to try to prove your point. That doesn't invalidate all of the others that do patch. And no you never proves that. You only stated it, which is obviously not proof.
I proved it to the point that it's Canonical's official stance. If it comes to that, you can't prove anything else. I at least got to the point of the vendor making it their support position. It's the most official thing that there could be.
Yeah except that's not proof. That's just you telling us that's what they said. That doesn't prove that a vendor doesn't support their releases.
It does, that's precisely what it does. When called on to support LTS, that was the only way to continue support. What else could it mean?
No because you have not provided us any proof that they said that. I could say that Canonical stated the opposite to me and that means that's proof?
Yes, but it's a one way proof. That they sometimes provide support doesn't mean that the reliably do. That they refuse support because it is LTS proves the point. To be supported, requires it to always be supported, not picking and choosing when they feel like it.
That's a strawman and has nothing to do with the argument. I said that you stating canonical doesn't support an OS isn't proof. And it's not. There is still no proof they said that other than heresay.
No, that requires calling me a liar. Because it was first hand.
By that logic, nothing is proof. Ever.
Right. That's why contracts are written and signed and not someone saying "we will or will not do this". You were definitely under a contract with them for support. This would have had to have been written somewhere.
And according to them, the contract is fulfilled by "helping us move to current, where there is support for patching stability issues". Which has been my point all along. I've stated this so many times.
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@scottalanmiller said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
I could say that Canonical stated the opposite to me
Stating that you will do something is a promise. It means very, very little.
Stating that you wont' do something and then refusing to do it, is an action and means, literally, everything.
"Hey, I'll go to dinner with you later." <--- Means very little, we don't even know if they intend to be honest.
"Oh yeah, I didn't go to dinner and didn't intend to." <--- Means a lot because it happened. That's proof. That they "didn't intend to" might be a lie, but at least a lie that matches the facts.
Stop the semantics. It's the point that the only proof is a person said it. There is no proof there.
What do you mean? It wasn't said, it was done. Needing support, they refused support. That's not "said it". You are trying to change a provable fact into heresay by acting like actions are just words.
No I'm saying you said that. You said they wouldn't do it. You are the subject of what we are talking about. The proof needs to be provided by you. Not just "they did it".
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Calling Ubuntu LTS "supported" is a trick. It's supported... only if you either redefine what support means to IT, or you move from LTS to current. They won't drop your support just because you ran LTS for a while, but they won't provide full support unless you switch from LTS to current. But because LTS can be updated to current, it legally qualifies as supported.
But if your software requires LTS for support, then it breaks that requirement. Or if politics demand you use LTS.
It's a careful semantic trick to make LTS seem viable, but not require the vendor to provide what we assume support to mean.
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@stacksofplates said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
I could say that Canonical stated the opposite to me
Stating that you will do something is a promise. It means very, very little.
Stating that you wont' do something and then refusing to do it, is an action and means, literally, everything.
"Hey, I'll go to dinner with you later." <--- Means very little, we don't even know if they intend to be honest.
"Oh yeah, I didn't go to dinner and didn't intend to." <--- Means a lot because it happened. That's proof. That they "didn't intend to" might be a lie, but at least a lie that matches the facts.
Stop the semantics. It's the point that the only proof is a person said it. There is no proof there.
What do you mean? It wasn't said, it was done. Needing support, they refused support. That's not "said it". You are trying to change a provable fact into heresay by acting like actions are just words.
No I'm saying you said that. You said they wouldn't do it. You are the subject of what we are talking about. The proof needs to be provided by you. Not just "they did it".
How would one ever provide proof for that? Once the observed facts are not believed, nothing is a proof. Everything is only a proof because someone observed it.
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By the "observation isn't proof" issue, we can never prove that support even exists. Because we can only prove that support has ever existed by someone having gotten support, observing that it happened, and reporting it. If we don't believe observation, then the entire concept of support is ephemeral in both directions.
So by that logic, that there is no proof of support or lack of support, LTS is worthless, as is all support, because you can't prove support.
This is a slippery slope that makes no sense.
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@scottalanmiller said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
I could say that Canonical stated the opposite to me
Stating that you will do something is a promise. It means very, very little.
Stating that you wont' do something and then refusing to do it, is an action and means, literally, everything.
"Hey, I'll go to dinner with you later." <--- Means very little, we don't even know if they intend to be honest.
"Oh yeah, I didn't go to dinner and didn't intend to." <--- Means a lot because it happened. That's proof. That they "didn't intend to" might be a lie, but at least a lie that matches the facts.
Stop the semantics. It's the point that the only proof is a person said it. There is no proof there.
What do you mean? It wasn't said, it was done. Needing support, they refused support. That's not "said it". You are trying to change a provable fact into heresay by acting like actions are just words.
No I'm saying you said that. You said they wouldn't do it. You are the subject of what we are talking about. The proof needs to be provided by you. Not just "they did it".
How would one ever provide proof for that? Once the observed facts are not believed, nothing is a proof. Everything is only a proof because someone observed it.
The original communication between the two parties. Just like any other case.
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@stacksofplates said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
I could say that Canonical stated the opposite to me
Stating that you will do something is a promise. It means very, very little.
Stating that you wont' do something and then refusing to do it, is an action and means, literally, everything.
"Hey, I'll go to dinner with you later." <--- Means very little, we don't even know if they intend to be honest.
"Oh yeah, I didn't go to dinner and didn't intend to." <--- Means a lot because it happened. That's proof. That they "didn't intend to" might be a lie, but at least a lie that matches the facts.
Stop the semantics. It's the point that the only proof is a person said it. There is no proof there.
What do you mean? It wasn't said, it was done. Needing support, they refused support. That's not "said it". You are trying to change a provable fact into heresay by acting like actions are just words.
No I'm saying you said that. You said they wouldn't do it. You are the subject of what we are talking about. The proof needs to be provided by you. Not just "they did it".
How would one ever provide proof for that? Once the observed facts are not believed, nothing is a proof. Everything is only a proof because someone observed it.
The original communication between the two parties. Just like any other case.
Um.... how is that different?
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@scottalanmiller said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
By the "observation isn't proof" issue, we can never prove that support even exists. Because we can only prove that support has ever existed by someone having gotten support, observing that it happened, and reporting it. If we don't believe observation, then the entire concept of support is ephemeral in both directions.
So by that logic, that there is no proof of support or lack of support, LTS is worthless, as is all support, because you can't prove support.
This is a slippery slope that makes no sense.
No you can definitely prove support, I can easily provide communication between myself and a company that has offered or denied support. What you can't do is prove support or lack of support by word of mouth.
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@scottalanmiller said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
I could say that Canonical stated the opposite to me
Stating that you will do something is a promise. It means very, very little.
Stating that you wont' do something and then refusing to do it, is an action and means, literally, everything.
"Hey, I'll go to dinner with you later." <--- Means very little, we don't even know if they intend to be honest.
"Oh yeah, I didn't go to dinner and didn't intend to." <--- Means a lot because it happened. That's proof. That they "didn't intend to" might be a lie, but at least a lie that matches the facts.
Stop the semantics. It's the point that the only proof is a person said it. There is no proof there.
What do you mean? It wasn't said, it was done. Needing support, they refused support. That's not "said it". You are trying to change a provable fact into heresay by acting like actions are just words.
No I'm saying you said that. You said they wouldn't do it. You are the subject of what we are talking about. The proof needs to be provided by you. Not just "they did it".
How would one ever provide proof for that? Once the observed facts are not believed, nothing is a proof. Everything is only a proof because someone observed it.
The original communication between the two parties. Just like any other case.
Um.... how is that different?
Because we can't see what they said obviously? We are only getting it from one party....
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@stacksofplates said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
By the "observation isn't proof" issue, we can never prove that support even exists. Because we can only prove that support has ever existed by someone having gotten support, observing that it happened, and reporting it. If we don't believe observation, then the entire concept of support is ephemeral in both directions.
So by that logic, that there is no proof of support or lack of support, LTS is worthless, as is all support, because you can't prove support.
This is a slippery slope that makes no sense.
No you can definitely prove support, I can easily provide communication between myself and a company that has offered or denied support. What you can't do is prove support or lack of support by word of mouth.
How can you prove it? That they did or did not support you is just hearsay to us. Just as that they didn't support me is just heresay to you. How is your getting or not getting support different than me getting or not getting support?
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@stacksofplates said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
I could say that Canonical stated the opposite to me
Stating that you will do something is a promise. It means very, very little.
Stating that you wont' do something and then refusing to do it, is an action and means, literally, everything.
"Hey, I'll go to dinner with you later." <--- Means very little, we don't even know if they intend to be honest.
"Oh yeah, I didn't go to dinner and didn't intend to." <--- Means a lot because it happened. That's proof. That they "didn't intend to" might be a lie, but at least a lie that matches the facts.
Stop the semantics. It's the point that the only proof is a person said it. There is no proof there.
What do you mean? It wasn't said, it was done. Needing support, they refused support. That's not "said it". You are trying to change a provable fact into heresay by acting like actions are just words.
No I'm saying you said that. You said they wouldn't do it. You are the subject of what we are talking about. The proof needs to be provided by you. Not just "they did it".
How would one ever provide proof for that? Once the observed facts are not believed, nothing is a proof. Everything is only a proof because someone observed it.
The original communication between the two parties. Just like any other case.
Um.... how is that different?
Because we can't see what they said obviously? We are only getting it from one party....
You are saying you could record the conversation using a mechanical means and use that as proof. But if you don't trust me not to lie, why do we trust you not to tamper?
It's still about trusting the source.
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@scottalanmiller said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
By the "observation isn't proof" issue, we can never prove that support even exists. Because we can only prove that support has ever existed by someone having gotten support, observing that it happened, and reporting it. If we don't believe observation, then the entire concept of support is ephemeral in both directions.
So by that logic, that there is no proof of support or lack of support, LTS is worthless, as is all support, because you can't prove support.
This is a slippery slope that makes no sense.
No you can definitely prove support, I can easily provide communication between myself and a company that has offered or denied support. What you can't do is prove support or lack of support by word of mouth.
How can you prove it? That they did or did not support you is just hearsay to us. Just as that they didn't support me is just heresay to you. How is your getting or not getting support different than me getting or not getting support?
Again I can provide the original communication between myself and the company. You haven't provided that. You've just told us they said something over 10 years ago.
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I understand that having a copy of an email chain is really handy because it means that, unless intent to defraud, is involved, it shows exactly what was said and not "how things were remembered." And sure, that has great value. But if the issue is proof or trust, it doesn't help because that's easily recreated.
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@stacksofplates said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
By the "observation isn't proof" issue, we can never prove that support even exists. Because we can only prove that support has ever existed by someone having gotten support, observing that it happened, and reporting it. If we don't believe observation, then the entire concept of support is ephemeral in both directions.
So by that logic, that there is no proof of support or lack of support, LTS is worthless, as is all support, because you can't prove support.
This is a slippery slope that makes no sense.
No you can definitely prove support, I can easily provide communication between myself and a company that has offered or denied support. What you can't do is prove support or lack of support by word of mouth.
How can you prove it? That they did or did not support you is just hearsay to us. Just as that they didn't support me is just heresay to you. How is your getting or not getting support different than me getting or not getting support?
Again I can provide the original communication between myself and the company. You haven't provided that. You've just told us they said something over 10 years ago.
Definitely not that long ago. About 7 years. A while, but that's a lot less than over ten.
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@stacksofplates said in Linux OS Thoughts?:
Again I can provide the original communication between myself and the company.
Okay, so you are talking about a recording of the conversation when you request support. Which, I agree, is highly useful. But still requires proving who the parties are, not tampering, etc.
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Locking to fork.
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Should be unlocked now. And... go...
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I am circling back to this, however I am seeing that if LTS is bad and the only bad things are the Software vendors then on that rationale Unifi and Zimbra are bad.
Zimbra just started Ubuntu 18.04 LTS Support (previously only beta)
https://zimbra.org/download/zimbra-collaborationUnifi is semi supported on the new version of 19.04 and 19.10 of Ubuntu and Debian but here they put the requirements very loosely and with the Mongodb and Java8 dependency that is old as well
https://help.ubnt.com/hc/en-us/articles/360012282453#2 -
@dbeato said in Discussion on LTS OSes:
then on that rationale Unifi and Zimbra are bad.
Absolutely. You might not agree, but that is exactly what I am saying. Zimbra, for example, relies on not keeping their components up to date (this is a major problem with them across the board and they abandoned their product update plans entirely two years ago!) and this not only is indicative of their overall problems, but also causes updates to be very painful on their platform and, likely, contributes to their performance overhead.
