Datto AP60
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@DustinB3403 said in Datto AP60:
How would someone who's never heard of something begin to work on it? Look it up and see what information is available on it.
That might give him some basics. But I bet an hour of Googling (other than this thread) and reading Datto's site would not tell you how it is going to be purchased or provisioned. It's not the kind of equipment where that info is public or obvious. It's easy to guess what the likely options are, but you can't tell which likely option is the real one. It might be like a Cisco device, or a Ubiquiti, or a Meraki, or Netgear ProSafe, or of course its own model.
Asking here is exactly what he's supposed to do. Sure, Googling is good, and he probably did, and found pretty quickly that what he needed to know wasn't available there.
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@scottalanmiller said in Datto AP60:
Asking here is exactly what he's supposed to do. Sure, Googling is good, and he probably did, and found pretty quickly that what he needed to know wasn't available there.
Yep.
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@JasGot said in Datto AP60:
@scottalanmiller said in Datto AP60:
You see it incorrectly. It's your right to have your opinion, but your view point here does not reflect any reality or fact. Under no condition is what you describe in any way your problem.
But the bosses believe (rightfully so) that IT guys are a dime a dozen, so unless you want to find yourself looking for a new employer on someone else's terms, you deliver to the extent you are willing and able, which may or may not be to the same extent as the next guy. But it's what you do......
I don't agree. This is like saying we should not complain when we don't get paid, or our vacations are taken away... because someone else will not stand up for their rights so we should allow our employer to break the law to protect our jobs because someone else won't and what can we do.
Actual IT people are not dime a dozen. IT jobs, however, are. In this case the OP is very new to the field and so that puts him at a disadvantage. But once he starts making it known that his rights are abandoned and his employer can walk all over him and make him pay for their mistakes, they are going to leverage that more and more. Firing him for not providing that gear is illegal, and claiming "right to work" state has nothing to do with breaking the law. You can't try to break the law and fire someone for standing up for their rights, that's federal and no state can take that away. Nor would an employer do that, it makes no sense. The cost to acquire and train someone, in the hopes that they will be desperate and also have the needed equipment at home to provide, would make the whole thing a huge loss. It's not a workable business practice, even if you get away with it.
There is a huge gap between working to the best of your ability within the scope of work, and going ridiculously out of your way to cover for an employer who intentionally isn't delivering for their customer (they've had a month to fix this and even knowing the situation today isn't attempting to fix it) and taking on guilt, stress, and responsibility that isn't his.
This is a tough one, I know it feels scary being an employee. But once we let @WrCombs or any of us feel powerless and that we have to just take whatever shaft our employers give us, we stop advancing and start losing ground... individually and collectively.
I'm trying to show him that he has rights, power, leverage, and value that his employer doesn't respect. We should be supporting him, and empowering him. Not making him feel helpless and worthless. Yes, he's very junior. But way more ambitious and caring about the job he does and the customers that he supports than 95% of the field. Other than being stuck in a horrific physical location, he'd be easily employable anywhere. I've only not hired him in the last month because of his location!
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@scottalanmiller said in Datto AP60::
I've only not hired him in the last month because of his location!
That’s the only reason I did not try to offer him a job three months ago. Although I did discuss it with him.
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The term I'm looking for is "battered wife syndrome." This is how IT often feels. Obviously "battered IT employee" syndrome is less physical, less serious, and dangerous to compare to something so terrible. But the mental effects are the same. Employers know that constantly belittling, berating, emotionally demeaning employees can make them eventually feel like they deserve to be treated badly... because they are worthless or can't do any better. Battered wives feel trapped, helpless, and commonly will eventually believe that they deserve to be treated badly because the abusive spouse convinces them that they are lucky to have them because no one else wants them.
This is exactly how we often act in IT. Employers constantly try to make us feel like we should feel lucky to have a job, that they are doing us a favour by employing us, that any abuse we get is our own fault for not having enough value... but all of this is false. But employers have lots of tools at their disposal from not having to pay us until after the work has been done, to being able to post fake jobs online, to being able to blackball us to other businesses. But just like an abused spouse, IT has value and just needs to stand up for themselves and get support, in places like ML. Yeah, finding a great job can be tough, but staying with an abusive one is worse long term. That doesn't mean walk away, but it also doesn't mean that we should ever believe our employers when they try to make us feel worthless.
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@JaredBusch said in Datto AP60:
@scottalanmiller said in Datto AP60::
I've only not hired him in the last month because of his location!
That’s the only reason I did not try to offer him a job three months ago. Although I did discuss it with him.
I had previously discussed relocation with him and knew that he couldn't take it. Really sucks because it would be a perfect fit if he were local.
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@scottalanmiller said in Datto AP60:
This is exactly how we often act in IT.
Yep, and just because you and I know better, doesn't mean we are going to stop him from proving it to himself. Have you ever seen a boy become a man without passing through adolescences?
It is possible to assist him in this matter and then talk (in a new thread) about why IT people should not tolerate this kind of treatment. Often, it is better to work through the problem at hand first, then circle back around and figure out how to prevent it from happening again.
I think this thread is a good example. Let's (those who have the answers he needs) get him through this WiFi issue, and then talk about how he needs to insist on proper planning earlier in the project next time.
In all my years as a multiple business owner, I've never once seen where beating someone over the head produced a better long term outcome, than taking their hand and walking along side them as you provide sound advice and direction. Even if they walk slower than you.
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@JasGot said in Datto AP60:
I think this thread is a good example. Let's (those who have the answers he needs) get him through this WiFi issue, and then talk about how he needs to insist on proper planning earlier in the project next time.
That's one approach. And it looks like it is working out here because it appears that the boss has shown that they were unable to, even when trying, acquire what was needed. Of course, we need to ask "why is the boss not the one bringing in their own gear if that is what is required?" The boss is getting freebies from vendors, and still doesn't have the tools for the job.
If this was a fast food situation, this would be like the store being out of hamburger buns and the boss having buns at home but refusing to bring in their own, but leaning on an employee to make them feel that their own groceries have to be brought in to keep the place making food as quickly as customers' want. Sounds crazy (and it is much more crazy given that those are consumable items.) But you get the point. Every person above @WrCombs in the command chain isn't willing to do what is needed from his boss up to the owner (that might be one person or one hundred, I have no idea.)
If we overlook this situation we run into a couple of issues. First is that precedence is set to the company - that they can expect the ridiculous from him that they wouldn't be willing to do themselves is established and they know it. Second that in his mind it starts the trend of thinking of his own personal resources as things that he "owes" to the company. Three that he feels that he doesn't have rights and value as an individual or professional. Sure, we can explain later that those things are false, but they are already in motion. The more we let it happen and plan to fix it later, the more ingrained it is, the more momentum in that direction.
Making technical mistakes is something that you learn from. You fall, you get back up. Being abused is not. It's not something that makes you stronger. It's something that always makes it harder for you, even after you've generally recovered. Some things, like broken bones, heal stronger than before. Mental abuse is not like that. It's more like a sprain. Each time you sprain, the harder it gets to heal and the more likely you are to get sprained again.
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@WrCombs said in Datto AP60:
@scottalanmiller said in Datto AP60:
@WrCombs said in Datto AP60:
But I'm running out of time and options here...
Just to be clear, she's running out of time and options. You are unaffected.
Sure ; IF that's how you see it.
I see it as MY install; im the Account Manager on this one and taking the lead so im the one stressing.This, this is the hardest aspect of this job that I've had to get over. Sure, it's your project, but you don't have a company CC - you don't have ordering rights/purchasing rights (Or do you?)
No job should ever expect you to perform a job that they don't give you the tools for, unless the job stated you had to provide such tools as part of the hiring process.
For example - if you having cell phone they can call you on is required for the job - either a) they provide it/pay for it - or B) tell you when you take the job of this requirement so you can decide if that is an acceptable part of the job requirements.
This is no different than wearing clothes to work - They tell you what type of clothes you must wear, but generally don't provide you those clothes, or even pay you so you can acquire them (well, not directly).
But, I assume they did say - to get this job you need to have reliable transportation, and we (the company) will reimburse you for driving your own vehicle based on mileage.
It's no different in your AP situation. You were told pre-hire that you had to provide networking equipment, so why should you? You still have 3 weeks before this install - assuming you can't get this 'free' AP working by noon - I'd go to her and say - Hey, I can't get this to work, I need to order an $90 UAP so I can pre-stage these tablets for this client - oh, and we'll have it here for the next install as well, etc.
If she says no - then say - OK, no problem, but I'll need a few more hours onsite at the client site to setup the tablets, once I get their WIFI network setup.
Frankly - from a time spent POV, there shouldn't really be much of a difference, it will likely take you the same amount of time - just in one case the client is watching you, and in the other, they are not.
I assume this project was sold as a flat rate project - so it's not like there could be more or less billing... -
@JasGot said in Datto AP60:
Yeah - he was cheating - asking to see if someone else had experience and could just point him in the right direction...
I don't agree with this for one second. Asking questions and bouncing ideas off one another is what we're all her for. Or, at least it should be. Besides, how the hell is that cheating? Is ML some kind of online university no one told me about? You may have real experience, and you may think you are adults, but you all still act like 7th graders.
You have no idea what time constraints or work load he is dealing with at this moment. We all know, as well as @WrCombs, how to go figure all of this out on our own. Sometimes that is just stupid. A quick answer or being pointed in the right direction may be just what he needed to resolve this problem quickly and efficiently. If I had the answer, I'd gladly give it to him with any BS attached.
Certainly the shit you all have strewn about today has been a complete waste of time, especially yours.
And the constant insisting that people tell their boss to f*ck themselves every time they need something that is beneath you is no way to make a living.
If all of you pulled that shit as often as you tell other people to, you'd all be out of work. And if you say it ain't so, I'll call BS.
Just think what better lives you'd have if you kept quiet when you didn't have anything useful or positive to say. I honestly don't know where you all find the energy to be such jerks all the time.
that was my quote - and I'll take the hit. it might have been a bit harsh - but using the piece of equipment was a thing put forth by his boss (now eventually @WrCombs told us the boss said he could take or leave this AP) so that pretty much means it's on him to learn what is needed to make it work. I don't mind the asking of the question - as long as it's followed up by his own Googling - as I quickly did upon seeing his post and quickly found out that it's a cloud controller based setup - and even posted as much comparing it to Meraki. Now @WrCombs lack of experience, exposure means he might not be familiar with Meraki, so he might not have been able to draw the same conclusion - and might have simply been lost as to what a cloud controller even was - at which point I pickup the phone and call the sales number on the website, while at the same time posting - OK it says it's a cloud controller based thing - what is that? (oh and I'm calling sales to get some info).
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@Dashrender said in Datto AP60:
at which point I pickup the phone and call the sales number on the website, while at the same time posting - OK it says it's a cloud controller based thing - what is that? (oh and I'm calling sales to get some info).
You called, or are you speaking as @WrCombs?
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@JasGot said in Datto AP60:
If I had the answer, I'd gladly give it to him with any BS attached.
That's just it*, this Datta AP60 is something of a unicorn that most people probably have never heard of, so the answer, google it and find out is as valid as anything else.
I think @dbeato is the only person on this thread who's said he's dealt with these. For this community that's a boon for soon.
But that doesn't address the real question that @WrCombs is asking, which still hasn't been clarified.
@WrCombs said in Datto AP60:
Wondering what i'm getting myself into.
To which the vast majority of this community would have to go and do the very same thing that was originally recommended. Look it up, if there was a specific question on how to setup an SSID on these someone with experience could create a guide - like @JaredBusch did with the Ubiquiti controller guide.
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@dbeato said in Datto AP60:
@JaredBusch said in Datto AP60:
@dbeato said in Datto AP60:
@JaredBusch said in Datto AP60:
@dbeato said in Datto AP60:
To answer the question that @WrCombs was asking. THe first step I need to know if this Access Point was purchased by your boss through a Partner or Directly (Which is rarely the case). The Datto Access Points (AP) are managed through the Cloud Portal of the MSP that usually manages them.
The AP60 is not the latest and should be on AP62 now.
That does not sound promising. Do these units work if they cannot reach the controller?
Without the controller the device cannot be managed as there is no interface to manage standalone.
....
That was not the question
@JaredBusch said in Datto AP60:
@dbeato said in Datto AP60:
@JaredBusch said in Datto AP60:
@dbeato said in Datto AP60:
To answer the question that @WrCombs was asking. THe first step I need to know if this Access Point was purchased by your boss through a Partner or Directly (Which is rarely the case). The Datto Access Points (AP) are managed through the Cloud Portal of the MSP that usually manages them.
The AP60 is not the latest and should be on AP62 now.
That does not sound promising. Do these units work if they cannot reach the controller?
Without the controller the device cannot be managed as there is no interface to manage standalone.
....
That was not the question
You probably edited your post after me since I quoted only what you posted. But I will answer it shortly.
So to answer the question finally, I know if you have it already configured it will continue to work just not controllable after the cloud controller stops.
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@DustinB3403 said in Datto AP60:
@Dashrender said in Datto AP60:
at which point I pickup the phone and call the sales number on the website, while at the same time posting - OK it says it's a cloud controller based thing - what is that? (oh and I'm calling sales to get some info).
You called, or are you speaking as @WrCombs?
I'm saying that is the process I would have followed if I were @WrCombs
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@Dashrender said in Datto AP60:
@DustinB3403 said in Datto AP60:
@Dashrender said in Datto AP60:
at which point I pickup the phone and call the sales number on the website, while at the same time posting - OK it says it's a cloud controller based thing - what is that? (oh and I'm calling sales to get some info).
You called, or are you speaking as @WrCombs?
I'm saying that is the process I would have followed if I were @WrCombs
That's what I thought you meant, but I'm in a bit of a fog this morning.
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@Dashrender said in Datto AP60:
@JasGot said in Datto AP60:
Yeah - he was cheating - asking to see if someone else had experience and could just point him in the right direction...
I don't agree with this for one second. Asking questions and bouncing ideas off one another is what we're all her for. Or, at least it should be. Besides, how the hell is that cheating? Is ML some kind of online university no one told me about? You may have real experience, and you may think you are adults, but you all still act like 7th graders.
You have no idea what time constraints or work load he is dealing with at this moment. We all know, as well as @WrCombs, how to go figure all of this out on our own. Sometimes that is just stupid. A quick answer or being pointed in the right direction may be just what he needed to resolve this problem quickly and efficiently. If I had the answer, I'd gladly give it to him with any BS attached.
Certainly the shit you all have strewn about today has been a complete waste of time, especially yours.
And the constant insisting that people tell their boss to f*ck themselves every time they need something that is beneath you is no way to make a living.
If all of you pulled that shit as often as you tell other people to, you'd all be out of work. And if you say it ain't so, I'll call BS.
Just think what better lives you'd have if you kept quiet when you didn't have anything useful or positive to say. I honestly don't know where you all find the energy to be such jerks all the time.
that was my quote - and I'll take the hit. it might have been a bit harsh - but using the piece of equipment was a thing put forth by his boss (now eventually @WrCombs told us the boss said he could take or leave this AP) so that pretty much means it's on him to learn what is needed to make it work. I don't mind the asking of the question - as long as it's followed up by his own Googling - as I quickly did upon seeing his post and quickly found out that it's a cloud controller based setup - and even posted as much comparing it to Meraki. Now @WrCombs lack of experience, exposure means he might not be familiar with Meraki, so he might not have been able to draw the same conclusion - and might have simply been lost as to what a cloud controller even was - at which point I pickup the phone and call the sales number on the website, while at the same time posting - OK it says it's a cloud controller based thing - what is that? (oh and I'm calling sales to get some info).
This brings up an interesting point... bringing in the Datto AP, something anyone familiar with it would have known wasn't going to be a viable solution because of the MSP issue... might have been an attempt to sabotage @WrCombs to make him struggle trying to figure that out rather than providing him with a solution. So that it would appear like his fault that he couldn't do the job rather than his boss' failure to provide the tools. If anyone asked the boss would have said an AP was provided, but that @WrCombs couldn't do the job. Now that he knows that the boss didn't bring a working AP at all he can protect against this.
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@Dashrender said in Datto AP60:
@dbeato said in Datto AP60:
@dbeato said in Datto AP60:
@JaredBusch said in Datto AP60:
@dbeato said in Datto AP60:
@JaredBusch said in Datto AP60:
@dbeato said in Datto AP60:
To answer the question that @WrCombs was asking. THe first step I need to know if this Access Point was purchased by your boss through a Partner or Directly (Which is rarely the case). The Datto Access Points (AP) are managed through the Cloud Portal of the MSP that usually manages them.
The AP60 is not the latest and should be on AP62 now.
That does not sound promising. Do these units work if they cannot reach the controller?
Without the controller the device cannot be managed as there is no interface to manage standalone.
....
That was not the question
@JaredBusch said in Datto AP60:
@dbeato said in Datto AP60:
@JaredBusch said in Datto AP60:
@dbeato said in Datto AP60:
To answer the question that @WrCombs was asking. THe first step I need to know if this Access Point was purchased by your boss through a Partner or Directly (Which is rarely the case). The Datto Access Points (AP) are managed through the Cloud Portal of the MSP that usually manages them.
The AP60 is not the latest and should be on AP62 now.
That does not sound promising. Do these units work if they cannot reach the controller?
Without the controller the device cannot be managed as there is no interface to manage standalone.
....
That was not the question
You probably edited your post after me since I quoted only what you posted. But I will answer it shortly.
So to answer the question finally, I know if you have it already configured it will continue to work just not controllable after the cloud controller stops.
I wonder if his boss received an MSP account so they could try this device... just like Meraki gave away free APs and free accounts for 3 years trying to hook people onto their platform. It was a good ploy.
I bet that they are expected to call the MSP to get things done. And that this was long ago. Just like the free Merakis... they time out if you don't keep paying (is my guess.)
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@scottalanmiller said in Datto AP60:
@Dashrender said in Datto AP60:
@dbeato said in Datto AP60:
@dbeato said in Datto AP60:
@JaredBusch said in Datto AP60:
@dbeato said in Datto AP60:
@JaredBusch said in Datto AP60:
@dbeato said in Datto AP60:
To answer the question that @WrCombs was asking. THe first step I need to know if this Access Point was purchased by your boss through a Partner or Directly (Which is rarely the case). The Datto Access Points (AP) are managed through the Cloud Portal of the MSP that usually manages them.
The AP60 is not the latest and should be on AP62 now.
That does not sound promising. Do these units work if they cannot reach the controller?
Without the controller the device cannot be managed as there is no interface to manage standalone.
....
That was not the question
@JaredBusch said in Datto AP60:
@dbeato said in Datto AP60:
@JaredBusch said in Datto AP60:
@dbeato said in Datto AP60:
To answer the question that @WrCombs was asking. THe first step I need to know if this Access Point was purchased by your boss through a Partner or Directly (Which is rarely the case). The Datto Access Points (AP) are managed through the Cloud Portal of the MSP that usually manages them.
The AP60 is not the latest and should be on AP62 now.
That does not sound promising. Do these units work if they cannot reach the controller?
Without the controller the device cannot be managed as there is no interface to manage standalone.
....
That was not the question
You probably edited your post after me since I quoted only what you posted. But I will answer it shortly.
So to answer the question finally, I know if you have it already configured it will continue to work just not controllable after the cloud controller stops.
I wonder if his boss received an MSP account so they could try this device... just like Meraki gave away free APs and free accounts for 3 years trying to hook people onto their platform. It was a good ploy.
I bet that they are expected to call the MSP to get things done. And that this was long ago. Just like the free Merakis... they time out if you don't keep paying (is my guess.)
His company is the MSP - the clients are the restaurants. I'm guessing his boss got this free unit as a way to get the company to start using them... no different from Meraki.
Of course, they are basically useless in this setup, because the APs are on a non internet connected network.
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@Dashrender said in Datto AP60:
No job should ever expect you to perform a job that they don't give you the tools for, unless the job stated you had to provide such tools as part of the hiring process.
And outlined what those tools were, or cost thereof. Otherwise the job can easily start treating you like a parts supplier. It's an AP today. Maybe a switch tomorrow. Eventually, maybe a desktop, or a server. First a car, then a pickup, eventually a box truck and a CDL.
There is a big gap between an employer who puts it on you to pay for their mistakes and treats you like dirt and an employer that treats you well, provides what is needed and you want to go the extra mile for because you can. There is a difference between being emotionally tricked into feeling responsible for someone else's failures, and volunteering to be a hero and go the extra mile.
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@scottalanmiller said in Datto AP60:
@dbeato said in Datto AP60:
@scottalanmiller said in Datto AP60:
@DustinB3403 said in Datto AP60:
@scottalanmiller said in Datto AP60:
We replace them with UBNT because they are better, not because they are less.
You absolutely have to be replacing this not only because Ubiquiti offers a better product, but because the TCO is way cheaper than the cost of Meraki's gear as well.
Actually, that pretty much never happens. That they are cheaper makes customers jump at it, but typically we replace the Merakis because of a failing that the UBNT fixes.
What failing? And the problem is not Meraki or Ubiquiti here. However when it comes to so called security experts they talk about Security Controls on APs which is very interesting and they leave out Ubiquiti because they don't have any.
Lack of features or flexibility, generally. Or that configuration costs, rather than unit costs, are so much higher that while it might be a cost factor, isn't a cost of the device factor.
I see, so bottom line factors.
