Software and Hardware Raid
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@dashrender I think I will setup a desktop and do some testing myself. I was originally curious if there was a consensus but I think it's pretty obvious there is not.
I think I will now setup raid on a desktop
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@scottalanmiller why is raid dead in the enterprise?
Why do hyper-v and esxi need hardware controllers?
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@tim_g said in Software and Hardware Raid:
@scottalanmiller said in Software and Hardware Raid:
@jmoore said in Software and Hardware Raid:
- Is there much of a difference between Windows and Linux software raid?
Huge. One is enterprise ready and the other is so bad that it creates the need for the hardware RAID industry.
This statement no longer has any value, and hasn't for a long time now. It's based off of ancient data, yet you still say the same thing every time it's mentioned.
Nothing has really changed. Windows Software RAID is still the same as it has always been. I say the same thing every time and no one has brought to light any new info on this to me to date. It's not ancient data, it is current data.
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@jmoore said in Software and Hardware Raid:
Why do hyper-v and esxi need hardware controllers?
Because Hyper-V has no production level RAID option, and ESXi has no software RAID whatsoever.
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@jmoore said in Software and Hardware Raid:
@scottalanmiller why is raid dead in the enterprise?
Enterprise is going to be using network level raid utilizing some sort of erasure coding. So instead of having a single server responsible for storing data, you have many servers storing data with however much parity is needed to maintain data. Example: https://www.backblaze.com/blog/reed-solomon/
Why do hyper-v and esxi need hardware controllers?
Windows, because nobody really trusts Windows to manage lots of drives. Seriously, the RAID may be rock solid now, but when drives randomly disappear and reappear it's insane to let it manage a RAID.
ESXi, because that's what they say, and how the system was designed.
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@jmoore said in Software and Hardware Raid:
@scottalanmiller why is raid dead in the enterprise?
Because it doesn't scale well, not vertically or horizontally. Enterprises don't deal with onesy, twosy servers and need systems like RAIN to deal with storage at scale. RAID is about "single node" storage. RAIN is not.
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@travisdh1 said in Software and Hardware Raid:
@tim_g said in Software and Hardware Raid:
@tim_g said in Software and Hardware Raid:
@scottalanmiller said in Software and Hardware Raid:
@jmoore said in Software and Hardware Raid:
- Is there much of a difference between Windows and Linux software raid?
Huge. One is enterprise ready and the other is so bad that it creates the need for the hardware RAID industry.
This statement no longer has any value, and hasn't for a long time now. It's based off of ancient data, yet you still say the same thing every time it's mentioned.
Don't confuse the lack of technical skill regarding a specific technology, with the tech itself being bad. I agree with your statement over 10 years ago, but this is no longer the case.
Personal experience of a tech in SMB does not reflect an entire industry or enterprise industry.
That said, I have used both almost equally in a number of scenarios, and in every case, I would say the opposite of you.
I think what it comes down to being "enterprise ready" is a proper GUI tool to manage it... but the tech itself, definitely enterprise ready.
A proper GUI makes something enterprise ready, really?
We've had GUI tools to manage LVM and drive partitions on Ubuntu/Red Hat/Etc for decades. Doesn't mean any sane person would run a GUI on one of those servers!
That's why nobody seems to use it... because lack of PS ability to manage the tech.
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@tim_g said in Software and Hardware Raid:
@tim_g said in Software and Hardware Raid:
@scottalanmiller said in Software and Hardware Raid:
@jmoore said in Software and Hardware Raid:
- Is there much of a difference between Windows and Linux software raid?
Huge. One is enterprise ready and the other is so bad that it creates the need for the hardware RAID industry.
This statement no longer has any value, and hasn't for a long time now. It's based off of ancient data, yet you still say the same thing every time it's mentioned.
Don't confuse the lack of technical skill regarding a specific technology, with the tech itself being bad. I agree with your statement over 10 years ago, but this is no longer the case.
Personal experience of a tech in SMB does not reflect an entire industry or enterprise industry.
That said, I have used both almost equally in a number of scenarios, and in every case, I would say the opposite of you.
I think what it comes down to being "enterprise ready" is a proper GUI tool to manage it... but the tech itself, definitely enterprise ready.
What does having a GUI have to do with being enterprise ready? Most of the best enterprise stuff has always been GUIless, especially in areas like RAID where there is no value to a GUI.
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@tim_g that's interesting and guess it means my question was more complex than I knew
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@tim_g said in Software and Hardware Raid:
@travisdh1 said in Software and Hardware Raid:
@tim_g said in Software and Hardware Raid:
@tim_g said in Software and Hardware Raid:
@scottalanmiller said in Software and Hardware Raid:
@jmoore said in Software and Hardware Raid:
- Is there much of a difference between Windows and Linux software raid?
Huge. One is enterprise ready and the other is so bad that it creates the need for the hardware RAID industry.
This statement no longer has any value, and hasn't for a long time now. It's based off of ancient data, yet you still say the same thing every time it's mentioned.
Don't confuse the lack of technical skill regarding a specific technology, with the tech itself being bad. I agree with your statement over 10 years ago, but this is no longer the case.
Personal experience of a tech in SMB does not reflect an entire industry or enterprise industry.
That said, I have used both almost equally in a number of scenarios, and in every case, I would say the opposite of you.
I think what it comes down to being "enterprise ready" is a proper GUI tool to manage it... but the tech itself, definitely enterprise ready.
A proper GUI makes something enterprise ready, really?
We've had GUI tools to manage LVM and drive partitions on Ubuntu/Red Hat/Etc for decades. Doesn't mean any sane person would run a GUI on one of those servers!
That's why nobody seems to use it... because lack of PS ability to manage the tech.
Ah, see there is the gap... it's used EVERYWHERE. It's super common. So that is the disconnect. It's insanely broadly used, without a GUI. Sure GUIs are available, but using one would be silly and non-enterprise. You are approaching this from a basic bit of misinformation - believing that some of the most common storage tools in teh world are not commonly used, and then making a logical mistep in trying to explain that misinformation connecting it to a lack of a GUI when there isn't even a lack, nor a need.
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@jmoore said in Software and Hardware Raid:
@tim_g that's interesting and guess it means my question was more complex than I knew
No, it's not at all complex. It's very simple, straightforward, and well known. Software RAID is generally better, conceptually. But some systems lack enterprise grade software RAID and need hardware RAID to fill the gap. It's that simple.
Hardware RAID adds some simplicity with blind swap for small and/or low end shops, so in the low end, you often see it where it is not needed to allow bench techs to do hardware work without IT oversight.
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@tim_g said in Software and Hardware Raid:
Don't confuse the lack of technical skill regarding a specific technology, with the tech itself being bad. I agree with your statement over 10 years ago, but this is no longer the case.
What has changed to make you feel that the tech has changed to be ready for prime time use now? I still see Windows software RAID systems failing with alarming rates, especially considering how rarely they are deployed.
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@tim_g said in Software and Hardware Raid:
@travisdh1 said in Software and Hardware Raid:
@tim_g said in Software and Hardware Raid:
@tim_g said in Software and Hardware Raid:
@scottalanmiller said in Software and Hardware Raid:
@jmoore said in Software and Hardware Raid:
- Is there much of a difference between Windows and Linux software raid?
Huge. One is enterprise ready and the other is so bad that it creates the need for the hardware RAID industry.
This statement no longer has any value, and hasn't for a long time now. It's based off of ancient data, yet you still say the same thing every time it's mentioned.
Don't confuse the lack of technical skill regarding a specific technology, with the tech itself being bad. I agree with your statement over 10 years ago, but this is no longer the case.
Personal experience of a tech in SMB does not reflect an entire industry or enterprise industry.
That said, I have used both almost equally in a number of scenarios, and in every case, I would say the opposite of you.
I think what it comes down to being "enterprise ready" is a proper GUI tool to manage it... but the tech itself, definitely enterprise ready.
A proper GUI makes something enterprise ready, really?
We've had GUI tools to manage LVM and drive partitions on Ubuntu/Red Hat/Etc for decades. Doesn't mean any sane person would run a GUI on one of those servers!
That's why nobody seems to use it... because lack of PS ability to manage the tech.
Actually, RAID and LVM on Linux work just fine from PS. 100% compatible. No issues at all. No idea why anyone would want that, but it's there.
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@travisdh1 said in Software and Hardware Raid:
@jmoore said in Software and Hardware Raid:
@scottalanmiller why is raid dead in the enterprise?
Enterprise is going to be using network level raid utilizing some sort of erasure coding.
I hate that term. RAID 5 is the most common form of erasure coding. EC means almost nothing.
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@travisdh1 said in Software and Hardware Raid:
Example: https://www.backblaze.com/blog/reed-solomon/That's RAIN, not Network RAID.
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@scottalanmiller said in Software and Hardware Raid:
@travisdh1 said in Software and Hardware Raid:
Example: https://www.backblaze.com/blog/reed-solomon/That's RAIN, not Network RAID.
Dangit, you have a nice nerf gun to hit me with till I get those straight in my head?
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@travisdh1 said in Software and Hardware Raid:
@scottalanmiller said in Software and Hardware Raid:
@travisdh1 said in Software and Hardware Raid:
Example: https://www.backblaze.com/blog/reed-solomon/That's RAIN, not Network RAID.
Dangit, you have a nice nerf gun to hit me with till I get those straight in my head?
Remember... Starwind is Network RAID and Scale is RAIN.
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@jmoore said in Software and Hardware Raid:
@dashrender I think I will setup a desktop and do some testing myself. I was originally curious if there was a consensus but I think it's pretty obvious there is not.
I think I will now setup raid on a desktop
To what end? If it's for testing purposes, I suppose that make sense, to give you experience, but practically, it's rarely worth it. RAID's purpose from my point of view is to survive some type of drive failure. But there are many failures your PC can suffer (mobo, power supply, RAM, etc). For most users, even CEO of fortune 100 companies don't have RAID on the workstations. (Scott will likely say that CEOs aren't the ones you'd see with this tech, and I agree, it's more likely that workers like CAD people, etc would be the ones with RAID in their workstation).
Most workers just need to make sure their data is backed up, then IT gives them another machine with their apps installed. -
@scottalanmiller said in Software and Hardware Raid:
@tim_g said in Software and Hardware Raid:
@travisdh1 said in Software and Hardware Raid:
@tim_g said in Software and Hardware Raid:
@tim_g said in Software and Hardware Raid:
@scottalanmiller said in Software and Hardware Raid:
@jmoore said in Software and Hardware Raid:
- Is there much of a difference between Windows and Linux software raid?
Huge. One is enterprise ready and the other is so bad that it creates the need for the hardware RAID industry.
This statement no longer has any value, and hasn't for a long time now. It's based off of ancient data, yet you still say the same thing every time it's mentioned.
Don't confuse the lack of technical skill regarding a specific technology, with the tech itself being bad. I agree with your statement over 10 years ago, but this is no longer the case.
Personal experience of a tech in SMB does not reflect an entire industry or enterprise industry.
That said, I have used both almost equally in a number of scenarios, and in every case, I would say the opposite of you.
I think what it comes down to being "enterprise ready" is a proper GUI tool to manage it... but the tech itself, definitely enterprise ready.
A proper GUI makes something enterprise ready, really?
We've had GUI tools to manage LVM and drive partitions on Ubuntu/Red Hat/Etc for decades. Doesn't mean any sane person would run a GUI on one of those servers!
That's why nobody seems to use it... because lack of PS ability to manage the tech.
Ah, see there is the gap... it's used EVERYWHERE. It's super common. So that is the disconnect. It's insanely broadly used, without a GUI. Sure GUIs are available, but using one would be silly and non-enterprise. You are approaching this from a basic bit of misinformation - believing that some of the most common storage tools in teh world are not commonly used, and then making a logical mistep in trying to explain that misinformation connecting it to a lack of a GUI when there isn't even a lack, nor a need.
No, I'm trying to take guesses on why people can't manage it properly, screw it up, cant fix it, and blame it on the technology not being enterprise ready. My guess was that there isn't a GUI available and it has to be done via PowerShell, like most enterprise tools.
With Windows, GUI is bad and means you can't manage things correctly, because the GUO is always missing most features and management abilities... but not via PS.
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@tim_g said in Software and Hardware Raid:
@scottalanmiller said in Software and Hardware Raid:
@tim_g said in Software and Hardware Raid:
@travisdh1 said in Software and Hardware Raid:
@tim_g said in Software and Hardware Raid:
@tim_g said in Software and Hardware Raid:
@scottalanmiller said in Software and Hardware Raid:
@jmoore said in Software and Hardware Raid:
- Is there much of a difference between Windows and Linux software raid?
Huge. One is enterprise ready and the other is so bad that it creates the need for the hardware RAID industry.
This statement no longer has any value, and hasn't for a long time now. It's based off of ancient data, yet you still say the same thing every time it's mentioned.
Don't confuse the lack of technical skill regarding a specific technology, with the tech itself being bad. I agree with your statement over 10 years ago, but this is no longer the case.
Personal experience of a tech in SMB does not reflect an entire industry or enterprise industry.
That said, I have used both almost equally in a number of scenarios, and in every case, I would say the opposite of you.
I think what it comes down to being "enterprise ready" is a proper GUI tool to manage it... but the tech itself, definitely enterprise ready.
A proper GUI makes something enterprise ready, really?
We've had GUI tools to manage LVM and drive partitions on Ubuntu/Red Hat/Etc for decades. Doesn't mean any sane person would run a GUI on one of those servers!
That's why nobody seems to use it... because lack of PS ability to manage the tech.
Ah, see there is the gap... it's used EVERYWHERE. It's super common. So that is the disconnect. It's insanely broadly used, without a GUI. Sure GUIs are available, but using one would be silly and non-enterprise. You are approaching this from a basic bit of misinformation - believing that some of the most common storage tools in teh world are not commonly used, and then making a logical mistep in trying to explain that misinformation connecting it to a lack of a GUI when there isn't even a lack, nor a need.
No, I'm trying to take guesses on why people can't manage it properly, screw it up, cant fix it, and blame it on the technology not being enterprise ready. My guess was that there isn't a GUI available and it has to be done via PowerShell, like most enterprise tools.
With Windows, GUI is bad and means you can't manage things correctly, because the GUO is always missing most features and management abilities... but not via PS.
OH, I think that I am following you now.
