Unitrends now has Office365 & Cloud backups!!
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@art_of_shred said in Unitrends now has Office365 & Cloud backups!!:
@BRRABill said in Unitrends now has Office365 & Cloud backups!!:
Yeah, @scottalanmiller and I had it out the other day about this whole topic. He was able to basically cover every scenario I came up with.
EXCEPT: someone hacking your admin account. But, if they hack your admin account anywhere you are in for some serious trouble. His thought is that if they have access to that, they could just delete the backups.
I'm not so certain about this, if the backup was separate.
Right. The backup has to be off-network to be safe.
So do you agree with Bill's stated version of @scottalanmiller opinion that ODfB and Sharepoint don't require any extra backups? Be the online or off?
Let's split this into two versions:
a) locally synced to user's endpoint device
b) never synced, online use, API use only -
@Dashrender said in Unitrends now has Office365 & Cloud backups!!:
@art_of_shred said in Unitrends now has Office365 & Cloud backups!!:
@BRRABill said in Unitrends now has Office365 & Cloud backups!!:
Yeah, @scottalanmiller and I had it out the other day about this whole topic. He was able to basically cover every scenario I came up with.
EXCEPT: someone hacking your admin account. But, if they hack your admin account anywhere you are in for some serious trouble. His thought is that if they have access to that, they could just delete the backups.
I'm not so certain about this, if the backup was separate.
Right. The backup has to be off-network to be safe.
So do you agree with Bill's stated version of @scottalanmiller opinion that ODfB and Sharepoint don't require any extra backups? Be the online or off?
Let's split this into two versions:
a) locally synced to user's endpoint device
b) never synced, online use, API use onlyActually it doesn't even matter because if they are deleted in b) they are also deleted locally.
You could say "well, you should backup your local copy elsewhere", but then that is a third party backup which @scottalanmiller is saying is not needed.
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@BRRABill said in Unitrends now has Office365 & Cloud backups!!:
@Dashrender said in Unitrends now has Office365 & Cloud backups!!:
@art_of_shred said in Unitrends now has Office365 & Cloud backups!!:
@BRRABill said in Unitrends now has Office365 & Cloud backups!!:
Yeah, @scottalanmiller and I had it out the other day about this whole topic. He was able to basically cover every scenario I came up with.
EXCEPT: someone hacking your admin account. But, if they hack your admin account anywhere you are in for some serious trouble. His thought is that if they have access to that, they could just delete the backups.
I'm not so certain about this, if the backup was separate.
Right. The backup has to be off-network to be safe.
So do you agree with Bill's stated version of @scottalanmiller opinion that ODfB and Sharepoint don't require any extra backups? Be the online or off?
Let's split this into two versions:
a) locally synced to user's endpoint device
b) never synced, online use, API use onlyActually it doesn't even matter because if they are deleted in b) they are also deleted locally.
You could say "well, you should backup your local copy elsewhere", but then that is a third party backup which @scottalanmiller is saying is not needed.
No, these scenarios have more than just ^ see Bill's comment above.
a suffers an indirect attack through something like crypto malware. B does't suffer these types of attack at all.
So, if A is required, you need to have a solution that takes that into consideration. I don't know how you have a syncing client solution and don't have a full blown backup solution in place. It doesn't need to be full blown offline (i.e. disconnected USB/Tape, etc) but it needs to be completely external to the service being backed up.
You can be worried about A and not worried about B. If you use something like 2FA for B type access, then it's pretty unlikely you have external sources to be concerned about. But employee error is still something you have to worry about.
@scottalanmiller how do you mitigate the employee error for situation B?
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@BRRABill said in Unitrends now has Office365 & Cloud backups!!:
@Dashrender said in Unitrends now has Office365 & Cloud backups!!:
@art_of_shred said in Unitrends now has Office365 & Cloud backups!!:
@BRRABill said in Unitrends now has Office365 & Cloud backups!!:
Yeah, @scottalanmiller and I had it out the other day about this whole topic. He was able to basically cover every scenario I came up with.
EXCEPT: someone hacking your admin account. But, if they hack your admin account anywhere you are in for some serious trouble. His thought is that if they have access to that, they could just delete the backups.
I'm not so certain about this, if the backup was separate.
Right. The backup has to be off-network to be safe.
So do you agree with Bill's stated version of @scottalanmiller opinion that ODfB and Sharepoint don't require any extra backups? Be the online or off?
Let's split this into two versions:
a) locally synced to user's endpoint device
b) never synced, online use, API use onlyActually it doesn't even matter because if they are deleted in b) they are also deleted locally.
You could say "well, you should backup your local copy elsewhere", but then that is a third party backup which @scottalanmiller is saying is not needed.
Sorry, I meant to say a) here
In my response.
If the cloud version is deleted, so is the local version.
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@BRRABill said in Unitrends now has Office365 & Cloud backups!!:
@BRRABill said in Unitrends now has Office365 & Cloud backups!!:
@Dashrender said in Unitrends now has Office365 & Cloud backups!!:
@art_of_shred said in Unitrends now has Office365 & Cloud backups!!:
@BRRABill said in Unitrends now has Office365 & Cloud backups!!:
Yeah, @scottalanmiller and I had it out the other day about this whole topic. He was able to basically cover every scenario I came up with.
EXCEPT: someone hacking your admin account. But, if they hack your admin account anywhere you are in for some serious trouble. His thought is that if they have access to that, they could just delete the backups.
I'm not so certain about this, if the backup was separate.
Right. The backup has to be off-network to be safe.
So do you agree with Bill's stated version of @scottalanmiller opinion that ODfB and Sharepoint don't require any extra backups? Be the online or off?
Let's split this into two versions:
a) locally synced to user's endpoint device
b) never synced, online use, API use onlyActually it doesn't even matter because if they are deleted in b) they are also deleted locally.
You could say "well, you should backup your local copy elsewhere", but then that is a third party backup which @scottalanmiller is saying is not needed.
Sorry, I meant to say a) here
In my response.
If the cloud version is deleted, so is the local version.
Absolutely - so I guess you're comment about that was that there should be a backup -uhhh.. yeah I agree with you, even though I guess others don't?
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@Dashrender said
Absolutely - so I guess you're comment about that was that there should be a backup -uhhh.. yeah I agree with you, even though I guess others don't?
Well, again that has to be quantified. @scottalanmiller contends that ODfB and SharePoint are fully backed up by Microsoft, and there is no need for additional backups.
I do not agree with that, and feel there should be a third party, separated backup.
He has gone silent on this issue. Hopefully he'll chime in. This is kind of why I started that other thread. Yes, that thread was for personal use, but the concepts are the same.
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@BRRABill said in Unitrends now has Office365 & Cloud backups!!:
@Dashrender said
Absolutely - so I guess you're comment about that was that there should be a backup -uhhh.. yeah I agree with you, even though I guess others don't?
Well, again that has to be quantified. @scottalanmiller contends that ODfB and SharePoint are fully backed up by Microsoft, and there is no need for additional backups.
I do not agree with that, and feel there should be a third party, separated backup.
He has gone silent on this issue. Hopefully he'll chime in. This is kind of why I started that other thread. Yes, that thread was for personal use, but the concepts are the same.
Well, the concepts aren't entirely the same - OneDrive vs OneDrive for Business - I do expect (maybe wrongly) that they would be different on the back end.
OneDrive I wouldn't expect MS to backup. Sure I expect them to make best effort to have my data in more than one place to save from DC failure, server failure, etc. But a full on backup? nah - it's to cheap to expect that.
But, OneDrive for Business/Sharepoint yes I do fully expect (again maybe wrongly) that MS should have backups and that I should be able to put in for a timely restore at the object level.
But it sounds like ODfB doesn't offer that either.So, what is a company to do when an employee goes on a rampage and deletes a bunch of stuff? and let's say it's photos so we don't have any potential versioning backups to recover from.
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@Dashrender said
So, what is a company to do when an employee goes on a rampage and deletes a bunch of stuff? and let's say it's photos so we don't have any potential versioning backups to recover from.
Or worse if your admin account gets compromised somehow.
I realize it's a game of numbers. From my offline discussions with @scottalanmiller he said it was more likely for my backup tapes to get thrown in a fire than it was for my admin account to get hacked.
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@BRRABill said in Unitrends now has Office365 & Cloud backups!!:
@Dashrender said
So, what is a company to do when an employee goes on a rampage and deletes a bunch of stuff? and let's say it's photos so we don't have any potential versioning backups to recover from.
Or worse if your admin account gets compromised somehow.
I realize it's a game of numbers. From my offline discussions with @scottalanmiller he said it was more likely for my backup tapes to get thrown in a fire than it was for my admin account to get hacked.
If you use 2FA I would agree with him.
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@Dashrender said >
If you use 2FA I would agree with him.
OK, so let me argue his point here then. (I wonder if @scottalanmiller is just sitting back, waiting to see if he has convinced me!)
If a secure admin password with 2FA is equally (f not more) secure than offsite backups, what are we afraid of?
- ODfB does not fall into play. ODfB is considered private user storage. Company files would need to be stored under SharePoint to be protected from total deletion.
1a. I think there is a way to preserve deleted user files in ODfB, but it has to be turned on for each individual user. (Can nayone confirm?) (See: http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/msoffice/forum/all/second-stage-recycle-in-one-drive-for-business/be1361fe-b87b-4457-9b32-12ca9ceae180?page=1)
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Any files that are deleted go into the site recycle bin, so while it might be a s-ton of work, they could be recovered.
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We trust that Microsoft is backing up the entire site, and will restore if needed. (The ENTIRE site though, not just one file.)
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@BRRABill said in Unitrends now has Office365 & Cloud backups!!:
@Dashrender said
So, what is a company to do when an employee goes on a rampage and deletes a bunch of stuff? and let's say it's photos so we don't have any potential versioning backups to recover from.
Or worse if your admin account gets compromised somehow.
This is different. This is intentional deletion, not by you, but still intentional deletion by your account through perfectly legal (as far as MS is concerned) means.
Your need for backup methods is partly decided by the risk vectors of the data loss.
So how much of a risk is it that you protect from intentional deletion?
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@JaredBusch said
This is different. This is intentional deletion, not by you, but still intentional deletion by your account through perfectly legal (as far as MS is concerned) means.
Your need for backup methods is partly decided by the risk vectors of the data loss.
So how much of a risk is it that you protect from intentional deletion?
Right, that is why @scottalanmiller is arguing against needing backup. Because the risk is so low. The risk of your backup tape (using tape as an example here, not as a working solution, obviously) and server both not working and leaving you with no data at all is more probable to him.
I said to me it FEELS like you should just back it up. Why not? We've been taught that our whole lives. It's always better to have 1 extra backup and not 1 too few backups, right?
But of course, the old "get emotion out of it" comes into play.
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@BRRABill said in Unitrends now has Office365 & Cloud backups!!:
@JaredBusch said
This is different. This is intentional deletion, not by you, but still intentional deletion by your account through perfectly legal (as far as MS is concerned) means.
Your need for backup methods is partly decided by the risk vectors of the data loss.
So how much of a risk is it that you protect from intentional deletion?
Right, that is why @scottalanmiller is arguing against needing backup. Because the risk is so low. The risk of your backup tape (using tape as an example here, not as a working solution, obviously) and server both not working and leaving you with no data at all is more probable to him.
I said to me it FEELS like you should just back it up. Why not? We've been taught that our whole lives. It's always better to have 1 extra backup and not 1 too few backups, right?
But of course, the old "get emotion out of it" comes into play.
Fuck your feelings... This is basic logic and a business decision based on numbers.
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@JaredBusch said in Unitrends now has Office365 & Cloud backups!!:
@BRRABill said in Unitrends now has Office365 & Cloud backups!!:
@JaredBusch said
This is different. This is intentional deletion, not by you, but still intentional deletion by your account through perfectly legal (as far as MS is concerned) means.
Your need for backup methods is partly decided by the risk vectors of the data loss.
So how much of a risk is it that you protect from intentional deletion?
Right, that is why @scottalanmiller is arguing against needing backup. Because the risk is so low. The risk of your backup tape (using tape as an example here, not as a working solution, obviously) and server both not working and leaving you with no data at all is more probable to him.
I said to me it FEELS like you should just back it up. Why not? We've been taught that our whole lives. It's always better to have 1 extra backup and not 1 too few backups, right?
But of course, the old "get emotion out of it" comes into play.
Fuck your feelings... This is basic logic and a business decision based on numbers.
Hey, my feeling have feelings man. SO harsh. LOL.
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@BRRABill said in Unitrends now has Office365 & Cloud backups!!:
Hey, my feeling have feelings man. SO harsh. LOL.
That is my point, and the reason for the harsh. You need to stop, because it does nothing but hurt the business.
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@JaredBusch said
This is basic logic and a business decision based on numbers.
Well, if there was a way to do it inexpensively, why not do it though?
Is ANY cost/effort a waste?
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@BRRABill said in Unitrends now has Office365 & Cloud backups!!:
Is ANY cost/effort a waste?
Yes. Unless it has been justified by a risk analysis.
- List the risks.
- Lists the impacts of those risks.
- List mitigation for each.
- Analyze.
- Implement as appropriate.
There is no other method that should be used for critical business services.
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As I understand it, and frankly I don't understand it that well, OneDrive for Business is part of SharePoint.
The primary concern to me is intentional or accidental deletion by users. If there is a site recycle bin that allows for the recovery of deleted items within the companies stated recovery threshold, then great, that is your solution. Does the ODfB have this, according to your link, yes it does, at least for E3 and higher plans.
I'll have to see if I have this with my O365 Business Essentials license.
But assuming you're using E3 or better, then it sounds like they have all the bases covered, and you would not need to worry about any external backups, short of your believe that MS will fold and take your data with them. (all of this only after you enable it of course, since it apparently is not enabled by default.)
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@Dashrender said in Unitrends now has Office365 & Cloud backups!!:
As I understand it, and frankly I don't understand it that well, OneDrive for Business is part of SharePoint.
The primary concern to me is intentional or accidental deletion by users. If there is a site recycle bin that allows for the recovery of deleted items within the companies stated recovery threshold, then great, that is your solution. Does the ODfB have this, according to your link, yes it does, at least for E3 and higher plans.
I'll have to see if I have this with my O365 Business Essentials license.
But assuming you're using E3 or better, then it sounds like they have all the bases covered, and you would not need to worry about any external backups, short of your believe that MS will fold and take your data with them. (all of this only after you enable it of course, since it apparently is not enabled by default.)
ODfB and Sharepoint, while sharing a platform, are really not the same.
Admins do not have access to their users ODfB account, unless they go out of their way to get them.
As I said, it looks like you can recovered deleted files, but it has to be set up user by user, and before anything happens.
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@BRRABill said in Unitrends now has Office365 & Cloud backups!!:
@Dashrender said in Unitrends now has Office365 & Cloud backups!!:
As I understand it, and frankly I don't understand it that well, OneDrive for Business is part of SharePoint.
The primary concern to me is intentional or accidental deletion by users. If there is a site recycle bin that allows for the recovery of deleted items within the companies stated recovery threshold, then great, that is your solution. Does the ODfB have this, according to your link, yes it does, at least for E3 and higher plans.
I'll have to see if I have this with my O365 Business Essentials license.
But assuming you're using E3 or better, then it sounds like they have all the bases covered, and you would not need to worry about any external backups, short of your believe that MS will fold and take your data with them. (all of this only after you enable it of course, since it apparently is not enabled by default.)
ODfB and Sharepoint, while sharing a platform, are really not the same.
Admins do not have access to their users ODfB account, unless they go out of their way to get them.
As I said, it looks like you can recovered deleted files, but it has to be set up user by user, and before anything happens.
Sure, that's no different than Exchange. Discovery isn't something that's on by default, you have to buy it. Now the question is, when you do, it is on by default for all users? or do you pick and choose?
Admins rarely have full access unless they jump through hoops to gain it - that's the way it should be. You don't want your admins just having willy nilly access to everything.
Sure MS should provide a much easier way to turn this feature on for every ODfB user in their company - I'd even be OK with a PowerShell script only approach for massive rollout, but at least they have the feature for now.
